Feature: Swapping Positions if Trapped
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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What is it?
It is an additional option for a trapped character to have a chance to still get out of the trap.
If someone receives PvP damage, the server checks whether this character
can move to at least one of the squares around him. If this is not the
case, all characters standing on one of those squares are marked for him
with a beige square around him. Now, the trapped character can walk
either by cursor or by mouseclick on any of these fields and will
thereby switch positions with that character.
Exceptions:
- If the trapped character was aggressive against one of those blockers
(he attacked first so got a yellow or white skull for it), he cannot
swap with that character for 60 seconds since the last damage.
- If this character has already swapped with the other character, they
have to wait 5 seconds to swap again with each other. They can however
continue to swap with other trappers.
Delays:
- We will start with a standard delay of 1 second on a swap (plus the usual walking speed delay when you walk).
Other things:
- If one of the fields is blocked by a stack of characters, the top
character is the one that counts. If the target is allowed to swap with
him, that top character will be pulled onto the targets field and the
target will enter the stack all the way down.
- If the target stands on a fire field, he can still swap, so yes, he will pull his trapper onto that field.
What should be tested?
- Does it work correctly?
- Are there ways to abuse this?
-- Check especially for the fire field issue
- Does it actually help the right people?
- Are the delays ok?
-- Check especially the speed for several character levels. We do not
want to make it too easy for high levels to get out, but still possible
for low levels.
- Does it break anything else in the game?
Fixes Sat, 11:15 CEST:
- Swapping speed is very fast --> Now set to 2 seconds for the
swapper and still 1 second for the one being swapped with, continue
testing with this.
Fixes Tue, 12:30 CEST:
- Passing level / quest doors not possible.
- Swapping into a stack does work only not if the top creature is not a player character.
- Boxes should only appear with characters you can really swap with at
that moment. This will also let the client know when to not do snap
backs or early walks for you.
- Swapping someone onto player created magic fields will destroy that field.
- Swapping ability only stays on until you swap the first time. You can
only swap further if you also receive further PvP attacks on you.
- Standing at the edge of a PZ while being PZ-blocked will also count towards a trap.
Fixes Wed, 20:00 CEST:
- You can now also swap with all summons and all monsters that can be
pushed. Additionally, like on Optional PvP you can now generally push
all summons, even if that monster would usually not be pushable.
Fixes Fri 9.10. 18:00 CEST:
- The above fix concerning monsters now works with the new client.
Fixes Tue 9.14. 13:30 CEST:
- Fixed the trap detection that did not activate if the victim stood in front of an open door to a house he may not enter.
- Swapping delay slightly reduced because of the delay on item use (like potions and runes)
Suggested improvements
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 27.08.2010 13:16:14
Edited by Craban
on 14.09.2010 13:47:25 |
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After testing this for a bit, I am a bit concerned that knights are going to fall victim to getting dragged into traps.
I was testing with Benja northeast of Thais and we were going back and
forth a bit. It became apparent though, that there are tons of areas
where a mage can simply walk into an enclosed space, swap position, lay
down some magic walls, and then kill the target.
As knights are the only vocation that need to be up close and personal
to those they are fighting, it seems like we are going to fall prey to
this sort of thing more than other vocations.
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| 27.08.2010 16:13:11 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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Interesting,
you'll have to show me how that works. As I now understood it, I can't
quite follow because if a mage uses mwalls to keep a knight at a
distance, then he can't shoot the knight either because of the mwall. Or
how does he do it otherwise? And how does this not apply to mages as
victims? Yes, they can shoot back over a distance, but they also have a
lot less hp to cover their back.
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| 27.08.2010 16:31:19 |
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It is a bit hard to explain, but I can try to show you in game.
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| 27.08.2010 16:37:46 |
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I
was white skulled but noone was attacking me, therefore I could not
switch. All I had to do was firebomb myself, and I could switch with
anyone around me even though I was the one causing the damage to them,
not the other way around.
Also, it seems a bit strange that the boxes appear around people you
cannot switch with. I think a box should appear only with those you are
able to switch with.
So far people have been saying that the swap speed is too fast. The 5
second delay for the same character is nice, but really its just too
fast when you go through different characters.
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| 27.08.2010 17:01:32 |
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Originally posted by Gorak on 27.08.2010 17:01:32:
[...]
> Also, it seems a bit strange that the boxes appear
> around people you cannot switch with. I think a box
> should appear only with those you are able to switch
> with.
[...]
This I agree with. There should either be a box only around those that
you can swap with, or a different colour box around those you can swap
with.
________________
| I'ma make you hate me, cos you ain't me. |
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| 27.08.2010 17:18:14 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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@
boxes: Thank you for that feedback, I also agree with this, I will talk
to our programmer on monday how hard it is to transmit this more
precisely to the client. This would also remove the snapbacks when you
try moving into one you are not allowed to swap with.
@ swapping speed: It is currently set to 1 second delay, I'll increase
it tomorrow to 2 so we can try it then. I was also expecting this which
is why I am prepared to fiddle around with that delay to find the best
suitable. It should of course stay below the 5 second delay you get for
reswapping the same pair or we would have to increase that delay too.
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| 27.08.2010 17:25:31 |
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Agreed
swapping speed is waay to fast, also.. I still don't like the idea of
people being able to manipulate the system with their own team.. again I
know it's hard to figure out who is who.. but I could show you some
things I thought about with it..
One for example, you have a guy trapped everyone attacks excepts those
diagonal.. have the diagonal guys attacked (trapped ofc) by their own
team.. and attack outside.. they can then swap with the actually trapee
and he will have a side step paralyze..on command, which doesn't give
the guy much time to react before being pulled yet again and possibly
stuck in a paralyze trap.. xD
________________
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27.08.2010 18:02:36
Edited by Enyx Deathweaver
on 27.08.2010 18:03:40 |
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Originally posted by Craban on 27.08.2010 17:25:31:
> @ boxes: Thank you for that feedback, I also agree
> with this, I will talk to our programmer on monday
> how hard it is to transmit this more precisely to the
> client. This would also remove the snapbacks when you
> try moving into one you are not allowed to swap
> with.
I was gonna mention it's hard to tell them apart but having the
puke-coloured-orange one not appear when you can't swap with a person
would be much better.
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| 27.08.2010 18:58:28 |
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Unlikely but we just discovered it's possible to trap people with MW's/friends and kill them with a FF like the old traps did..
Or a random AFK'r, or a botter... etc etc
Trap/FF under yourself and swap alot.. :s
________________
I'm just a playa, and I'm playin' my part. So step to the side, cause your blockin' my shine.
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| 27.08.2010 19:39:15 |
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 ABUSE!
Ok, tried my specialty: passing level doors at low level abusing new features. 
Easy by using the swap thing: You just swap positions with one high
level that stands in the door. Then you swap again with one inside, and
you are trough.
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2144/aubseleveldoor.jpg [Do not look at external websites. Your account could be hacked.] |
27.08.2010 19:52:55
Edited by Borr Henceforth
on 27.08.2010 19:53:31 |
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After
Borr tried with the level doors we also gave it a go with quest doors.
It is also possible to pass them with characters who should not be able
to using the swap feature
Good catch Borr..that definitely would have needed a server reset if it hadn't been caught.
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27.08.2010 20:05:14
Edited by Dragonas
on 27.08.2010 20:07:33 |
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Something else, we did not all agree but I think this is something that needs to be fixed:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/7676/holeisnotrap.jpg [Do not look at external websites. Your account could be hacked.]
A hole is not considered to be trapping you.
In a way that is true, since you have a option to escape: go down.
However, there certainly are holes that you don't want to go down into, because they lead to a certain death.
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| 27.08.2010 20:27:19 |
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Night Creature
Senator
Inhabitant of Askara
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 104
Bregan dearthe of the Imperial (Jarlaxle)
Posts: 4983
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I kind of agree with borr on the hole idea, i'm thinking about holes with "no return"
ps, you can almost see my name on the level door screenshot! It's blocked 
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| 27.08.2010 20:29:52 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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- Check especially for the fire field issue
In a narrow passage that is being blocked by one person, you can block
yourself in with a mw, put a field rune under you, and then swap with
the person blocking the passage.
One thing to note, if you do that swap right after you put the field rune down you will get a ws.
So what is that delay on using field runes before you get skulled?
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| 27.08.2010 20:37:14 |
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Remember
the case on Antica where one knight stopped a whole army for a long
time, sacrificing himself but giving his friends behind him the chance
to log out after their skulls were gone? It happened at the tunnel to
the ghouls, on Edron.
Anyway, with this new feature, people can just swap positions with the knight and go past him.
I think this qualifies as an example where the feature does not help the right people.
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| 27.08.2010 20:44:56 |
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Mastro Daro
Senator
Inhabitant of Nova
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 216
Army Lord of the Hussars of Glory (The Ancient Dark Wizard)
Posts: 2221
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More details on lvl door:
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9320/uo0009w.jpg [Do not look at external websites. Your account could be hacked.]
When you switch with character that stand on lvl door you get there but
character struck there, and get heavy graphic lag. Then if high lvl open
the gate again the low lvl already standing in sqm with lvl gate can
move inside.
//Mastro~
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| 27.08.2010 20:56:49 |
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About
the fire field issue: You can abuse it to drag innocent (afk, for that
matter) players on a fire, so you can kill them without getting a skull.
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2927/abusepullonfire.jpg [Do not look at external websites. Your account could be hacked.]
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| 27.08.2010 21:46:20 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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we found 2 bugs with the swap feature.
First bug is with field rune and pvp damage, or lack of pvp damage.
Don had me trapped, he put a fire field under his feet so he could swap with me.
He made the swap, so I was standing on fire field and blocked where I could not move.
I was now taking the damage from the fire field, I was blocked, but I could not swap with don.
----------------
2nd bug. swapping into a stack.
Same place, don and mastro were at a ladder, I was trapped. I saw the orange square and clicked on it.
I could tell the client was trying to do the swap, but I kept snapping
back and could not swap. The only thing different from other swaps at
this place was the fact it was a stack.
--might need to double check this, I can not be 100% that I had not
caused either of them damage, so that 60 second block may have caused
this.
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27.08.2010 22:31:30
Edited by Alecto Misc
on 27.08.2010 23:57:43 |
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Something to think about....
Imagine a long ally filled with people, for example at a quest like Pits of Inferno.
Everyone is peaceful, nobody attacks.
Then two abusers show up, they attack each other. Now they can quickly
swap themselves all the way to the front of the line. Nobody will be
able to stop them by swapping them back, because they would need to get
attacked by someone else first, which would require coordination, equals
time.
My opinion:
I don't think this negative side effect weighs up against the positive
effects in the very same ally where some innocent players would be
trapped... but if a solution can be found it would be nice.
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| 27.08.2010 22:43:10 |
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Página 2:
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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we just learned something new about the pullswap
If you get the aggressive (skulled) person trapped between those he
attacked he won't be able to swap to get out. The 60 seconds did not
start counting until everyone stopped attacking the skulled aggressor.
So this is how you need to do it to get a high level trapped.
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27.08.2010 22:47:30
Edited by Alecto Misc
on 27.08.2010 22:54:43 |
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Arcnagett
Senator
Inhabitant of Valoria
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 107
Ivory Guardian of the Elysium (Veritas vos Liberabit)
Posts: 11147
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Found a failure in the system.
I may not happend too often but it certainly can happend. Here is an ilustration:
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/2688/trapswap.jpg [Do not look at external websites. Your account could be hacked.]
It happens like this:
Consider Arcnagett on Secura as player 1, Tenente Arcnagett as player 2 and Arcnagett as player 3.
Player 1 and 2 manage to get player 3 trapped as in the picture.
Then, player 1 attacks player 3, being the attacker and getting a white
skull. Player 3 cannot swap positions with player 2 in this case!
Player 3 gets angry and attacks player 2, being the agressor and getting
a white skull. Now it's just impossible to swap positions with player 2
because he was the agressor!
Player 2 then attacks player 3 with player 1 and wins.
This can happend on any 1 sqm corridors, consider the same situation happening from up and down directions.
NOTE: When skulls are gone the swap option is still avaiable until the
order is such that attacker is far from attacked. (in this case the
final order was 3 1 2 (from starting 1 2 3))
Note 2: didn't post it on Tibiapic because a pic of me with 3 chars
logged in could cause trouble, lemme know if i have to edit it and host
there.
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28.08.2010 05:15:33
Edited by Arcnagett
on 28.08.2010 05:16:59 |
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Samerian Sheefoo
Inhabitant of Premia
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 119
Posts: 1911
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Not
sure if this is a bug, or if it's intended, but I was trapped by 3
other characters, one of them was skulled and attacking me, and I could
switch with the skulled character, that would just spoil traps in normal
PvP combat. The swap should only work on people that weren't aggressive
towards me 
Yours,
Sheefoo
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| 28.08.2010 10:01:59 |
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Originally posted by Arcnagett:
> Then, player 1 attacks player 3, being the attacker
> and getting a white skull. Player 3 cannot swap
> positions with player 2 in this case!
Why not? It's not important who attacks the victim, as soon as the
server detects he is trapped and under attack, he can swap with player
2. That is how I understood it. Your test results tells you different?
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| 28.08.2010 11:20:08 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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I
Originally posted by Enyx Deathweaver on 27.08.2010 18:02:36: Concerning trappee being pulled in:
I have just now changed the delays for swapping. Now, the one who
activates the swap gets 2 seconds delay while the one being swapped with
gets only 1 second. Do you think this will help with the situation you
described? I can set the delay for these to pretty much anything, so
give feedback on both involved concerning speed.
Originally posted by Blue Magical Jess on 27.08.2010 18:58:28:
> I was gonna mention it's hard to tell them apart but
> having the puke-coloured-orange one not appear when
> you can't swap with a person would be much better.
You know that you just insulted Stephan? 
Originally posted by Enyx Deathweaver on 27.08.2010 19:39:15: Concerning fire fields
Yes, I was aware of this. If you think this is really abusable (also as
in the example someone else gave with FFing yourself to be able to swap
but then being skulled for it), we can set it so that any field will be
destroyed when you swap someone onto that field (just like on Optional
where mwalls can be destroyed by people walking onto them). I'll have
this done next week.
Originally posted by Borr Henceforth on 27.08.2010 19:52:55: Abuse!
Thank you, I will have that fixed next week.
Originally posted by Borr Henceforth on 27.08.2010 20:27:19: A hole does not count towards a trap.
Actually, I don't agree that it should. It is a way out, just as any
free field is. You may also not want to walk into the direction of the
free field, yet you can. If PKs manage to drive you to somewhere where
your only exit leads to somewhere you do not want to go, then they did
well, they really still need the chance to get people, and if you do not
want to take this route out, that is your choice. The important thing is that you still have a choice, that is the main thing this feature is supposed to bring.
Originally posted by Borr Henceforth on 27.08.2010 20:44:56:
> Remember the case on Antica where one knight stopped
> a whole army for a long time, sacrificing himself but
> giving his friends behind him the chance to log out
> after their skulls were gone? It happened at the
> tunnel to the ghouls, on Edron.
>
> Anyway, with this new feature, people can just swap
> positions with the knight and go past him.
>
> I think this qualifies as an example where the
> feature does not help the right people.
I am not sure I agree on this either. I am not too fond of people being
able to do this so well as they can now. If a team has skulls and tries
to hide until they wear off, I find it fair that there is a way to get
through, or at least that you need more than just one guy to block
people off for a while, and that this blocking off does not work for as
long as the guy lives.
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| 28.08.2010 12:52:35 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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II
Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 27.08.2010 22:31:30: we found 2 bugs with the swap feature.
> Don had me trapped, he put a fire field under his
> feet so he could swap with me.
>
> He made the swap, so I was standing on fire field and
> blocked where I could not move.
>
> I was now taking the damage from the fire field, I
> was blocked, but I could not swap with don.
Well, first, there is a 5 second delay to swap with the same guy again,
so maybe it was that, then there is another delay if you hit him first,
are you sure that did not play in?
> 2nd bug. swapping into a stack.
Actually, I found this as a bug yesterday and had it fixed before I
started inviting you all, so it should actually work now (unless our
client programmer gave me the wrong install packages), please check
again and also tell me which message you get if it does not work.
Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 27.08.2010 22:47:30:
> we just learned something new about the pullswap
>
> If you get the aggressive (skulled) person trapped
> between those he attacked he won't be able to swap to
> get out. The 60 seconds did not start counting until
> everyone stopped attacking the skulled aggressor.
>
> So this is how you need to do it to get a high level
> trapped.
Fully agreed and was intended that way. If you are in a trap, you will
always have to chose to either fight or swap, same goes for trappers:
They can decide to either maximize firepower, then they have no chance
of swapping you back, or to try and play the swap game with their
target, but then they need chars that do not attack him.
Originally posted by Arcnagett on 28.08.2010 05:15:33: Found a failure in the system.
I don't consider this a failure, it is still a choice player 3 has. If
he decides to attack 2 as first attacker, then he decided to fight and
not swap. It was in his hands and he failed, not the system. I fully
support the possibility to still get people really trapped if you manage
to make them take the wrong decision, this is the smallest example of
how this can work. If you manage to trap but not attack a knight for
example and he loses temper and does berserk, perfect! You got him and
he failed!
Originally posted by Samerian Sheefoo on 28.08.2010 10:01:59: you can swap with white skull attacking you
It was intended this way. You can only not swap if you are the aggressor, but of course you can swap with your aggressors.
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| 28.08.2010 12:53:06 |
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Hmm,
there is something that came to my mind when I see this swapping-dance.
It's not really connected to PvP combat, but the same system could be
used to avoid another game weakness. Since anyone can trap players
standing next to a depot locker with just some parcels behind, why not
to add the beige square if player is standing on an orange floor tile
next to a depot locker and the nearby spot is not free. This way the
person standing next to a locker could swap with the one trapping him
and escape easily.
I know it's not really on topic, but why not to fix another problem at the same time?
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| 28.08.2010 13:05:38 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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Originally posted by Myst'Sharion on 28.08.2010 13:05:38:
> Hmm, there is something that came to my mind when I
> see this swapping-dance. It's not really connected to
> PvP combat, but the same system could be used to
> avoid another game weakness. Since anyone can trap
> players standing next to a depot locker with just
> some parcels behind, why not to add the beige square
> if player is standing on an orange floor tile next to
> a depot locker and the nearby spot is not free. This
> way the person standing next to a locker could swap
> with the one trapping him and escape easily.
>
> I know it's not really on topic, but why not to fix
> another problem at the same time?
I'll ask about this, but with low priority. The problem with it is
probably that the guy you swap onto the depot field might get access to
your depot, depending on the exact timing of the swap. We'll check that
technically.
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| 28.08.2010 13:22:37 |
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Originally posted by Craban:
> Concerning fire fields
>
> Yes, I was aware of this. If you think this is really
> abusable (also as in the example someone else gave
> with FFing yourself to be able to swap but then being
> skulled for it), we can set it so that any field will
> be destroyed when you swap someone onto that field
> (just like on Optional where mwalls can be destroyed
> by people walking onto them). I'll have this done
> next week.
That is not enough, I tested this with a spawned fire. There are
wildfires everywhere in Tibia, I don 't think you want to delete those
when someone abuses them to kill someone without getting a skull. The
screenshot I gave earlier was on the fire of the trolls camping east of
Thais. You could also test in the Amazon camp, and on many other places.
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| 28.08.2010 13:24:52 |
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There is 1 important question I need to ask.
If you're trapped and you go to swap with someone, you drag them onto
your square but before the swap starts, you had to use your hotkey to
heal with a potion. Would the healing cancel the swap? If so, we need to
not make the swap take too long. 1 second may have been long for
situation where the player is getting attacked by 1-2 players but most
of the time, when you are trapped and are in war-mode, you are getting
pounded and the 1 second delay would be just enough time to use the swap
feature.
________________
| I'ma make you hate me, cos you ain't me. |
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| 28.08.2010 13:25:30 |
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Originally posted by Craban on 28.08.2010 12:52:35:
>
Originally posted by Borr Henceforth on
> 27.08.2010 20:27:19: A hole does not count
> towards a trap.
>
> Actually, I don't agree that it should. It is a way
> out, just as any free field is. You may also not want
> to walk into the direction of the free field, yet you
> can. If PKs manage to drive you to somewhere where
> your only exit leads to somewhere you do not want to
> go, then they did well, they really still need the
> chance to get people, and if you do not want to take
> this route out, that is your choice. The
> important thing is that you still have a choice, that
> is the main thing this feature is supposed to bring.
Just tested it, the same goes for stairs. So a trapping team can have
some people upstairs, some people downstairs, and all the victim can do
is go up and down. He does have a choice indeed: stay and be killed or
hop up and down and be killed. There are places, especially in towns,
where a lot of potential targets are, where this can be abused easily. I
don't mind if it is changed or not because this is also possible on the
current servers. But exactly this kind of trapping might occur more
often in the future, just because it will be one of the few possible
ways to trap someone, and out of those options one of the easiest.
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| 28.08.2010 13:31:24 |
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Is it possible to just stop players from taking damage when someone swaps them onto a dangerous floor tile?
P.S, if the depo swap isn't techinically possible how about using the
house kick spell while inside a depo to get out? Or finally letting
players push others over parcels and crates and junk. Would also be nice
if players were prioritised over any junk under their feet when
dragging them onto a neighboring square..
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28.08.2010 13:41:23
Edited by Blue Magical Jess
on 28.08.2010 13:47:56 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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I
took down your proposals on my internal proposal collection. If I see a
good time to mention these ideas, I'll have it considered.
________________
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| 28.08.2010 13:51:16 |
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Azriel
Inhabitant of Shivera
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 109
Posts: 2328
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In my opinion it shouldn't apply to war mode characters in situations like this:
Let's say there are teams A and B and they're in war mode. 8 players
from team A trap 1 guy from team B. Now, they can whether kill him or
keep him trapped (unless he attacks them). If they don't attack him, he
will wait and logout. If they attack him, he will escape from the trap.
Why should he be able to escape so easily? As far as it's good when it
comes to PK, it destroys the war mode. Trapping is part of the war and
if you're affraid of it you don't accept war mode, simple.
Yours,
Azzy
________________
Proud Tutor since 27/05/07 to 27/05/10 and since 13/08/10 to ...
17:31 Exorz [206]: why gonna help him xd
17:31 Azriel [83]: Cuz I'm Azriel, haha |
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| 28.08.2010 16:21:17 |
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I
did notice for those wondering if your spamming a spell or potion and
try to swap, it will NOT work. You'll simply get some sort of snap back
effect.
Anyways after trying it out a bit more today, the more im either liking
it or not liking it. In the sense if im on a common hunt and I get
jumped by a bunch of people im loving it, but if im trying to trap a
high level with a group of 4 other friends, I begin to hate it. besides
the fact I can never trap him unless he fights back he would easily
elude us and run off before we can deal a finishing blow. Not just once
will that happen but multiple times if not all.
I for one question, how am I suppose to kill that guy if he will escape
100% of the time? he escapes far too easily imo, because he can swap
with anyone as long as he has been tapped by someone. and since this
also applies to war mode characters so even if you managed to trap one
of em he will less easily escape as now everyone is attacking him
instead of a few.
im kinda crossed on it as you can see, but if anything it should be
weaker between war mode characters then to non war mode people, but
cause if you do accept war mode your signing a contract that you agree
to fight and to be killed.
________________
As the old saying goes... "Fifty NO's and one YES means YES!"
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| 28.08.2010 16:35:23 |
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Delixu
Senator
Inhabitant of Secura
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 186
Phalangites of the Phalanx Eroica (The Shadow Hunter)
Posts: 10452
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Originally posted by Craban on 28.08.2010 12:52:35:
> I am not sure I agree on this either. I am not too
> fond of people being able to do this so well as they
> can now. If a team has skulls and tries to hide until
> they wear off, I find it fair that there is a way to
> get through, or at least that you need more than just
> one guy to block people off for a while, and that
> this blocking off does not work for as long as the
> guy lives.
I don't know if I am being crazy, but to me this system kind of defeats
the whole purpose of knights in PVP Combat. Knights need to be nearby in
order to deal damage, and that is basically one of the main reasons for
traps now that you can attack through battle window. However, now that
will be gone. Knights will be left to chasing down oponents like a
headless chicken while being unable to heal effectively (e.g. potions)
while walking due to their delay. Knights have been complaining about
being ridiculously underpowered for years, and I feel that this will
underpower us even further. Not only will knights lose the ability to
deal some serious damage with spells like exori gran on a trapped
target, we will also not be able to "stonewall" a team out at the
expense of our own lives.
--Delixu
________________
The Shadow Hunter
“When we truly realize that we are all alone is when we need others the most.”
Ronald Anthony |
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28.08.2010 17:27:39
Edited by Delixu
on 28.08.2010 17:28:23 |
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Yes, knights will have another disadvantage: They cannot summon.
Why?
Soon after this system is launched, people will realize they can still
trap people as long as they leave one open spot next to their victim.
Those who are trapped will realize they can swap out if they fill those
gaps - so they will summon something to complete the trap and then swap
their way out.
Only mages can do so though.
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| 28.08.2010 17:31:01 |
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Azriel
Inhabitant of Shivera
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 109
Posts: 2328
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I
have nothing against knights blocking the 1 sqm path as long as they
are in war mode (if there is war mode on) or if they are main characters
and not noob chars. People often use low level chars to trap many
places and it's just not worth killing them all to get to the enemy. So,
main chars/war mode chars blocking places is okey for me, doing the
same with noob chars is unfair.
But as far as there's no problem with war mode chars, how to recognize
whether it's a noob char or a main char blocking the path when there's
no war mode? Anyway, the current situation on Test Server is unfair in
my opinion.
Yours,
Azzy
________________
Proud Tutor since 27/05/07 to 27/05/10 and since 13/08/10 to ...
17:31 Exorz [206]: why gonna help him xd
17:31 Azriel [83]: Cuz I'm Azriel, haha |
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| 28.08.2010 17:36:55 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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Originally posted by Borr Henceforth on 28.08.2010 17:31:01:
> Yes, knights will have another disadvantage: They
> cannot summon.
>
> Why?
>
> Soon after this system is launched, people will
> realize they can still trap people as long as they
> leave one open spot next to their victim.
>
> Those who are trapped will realize they can swap out
> if they fill those gaps - so they will summon
> something to complete the trap and then swap their
> way out.
>
> Only mages can do so though.
Pallies and even some high mglvl knights can do that too with mwalls.
Additionally, if one square is open, you can pull a trapper onto that
field and thus break the line. There are still options.
________________
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| 28.08.2010 18:05:54 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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Concerning knights as blockers:
What if we were to add a spell for knights called "stance". This would
basically mean that the knight makes himself unmovable and unswappable
for a certain time (similar to mwalls), but he could also not perform
any aggressive moves during that time.
I can however only introduce this spell when we can also put a higher
delay on it than it lasts so that there must be a few seconds during
which that knight can be moved. That would basically enable him to use
himself as something similar to a wild growth / mwall.
What do you think?
________________
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| 28.08.2010 18:08:25 |
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Página 3:
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Oh....now that might have some promise.
It keeps some of the protection ability in place, gives knights some
greater use in PvP, but is not going to break the swap system.
I think the main thing that people have always been concerned with when
it comes to traps are the use of low level garbage characters. This
would hopefully negate the use of said characters while also keeping
some of the known PvP tactics in place.
________________
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| 28.08.2010 18:20:45 |
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Originally posted by Craban on 28.08.2010 18:08:25:
> Concerning knights as blockers:
>
> What if we were to add a spell for knights called
> "stance". This would basically mean that the knight
> makes himself unmovable and unswappable for a certain
> time (similar to mwalls), but he could also not
> perform any aggressive moves during that time.
>
> I can however only introduce this spell when we can
> also put a higher delay on it than it lasts so that
> there must be a few seconds during which that knight
> can be moved. That would basically enable him to use
> himself as something similar to a wild growth /
> mwall.
>
> What do you think?
Awesome
This adds to the value of a knight, without making him overpowered,
since it does not benefit the knight himself, but just his role as a
blocker.
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| 28.08.2010 18:21:10 |
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Delixu
Senator
Inhabitant of Secura
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 186
Phalangites of the Phalanx Eroica (The Shadow Hunter)
Posts: 10452
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@Craban:
It would still defeat the purpose of stonewalling. A level 200 knight
has over 3000 HP, however even with this spell he'd only be a
"stonewall" for a few seconds, thus rendering his 3000HP - which is more
than enough to block Orshabaal for example - useless for most of the
time.
My issue is that while mages and paladins will be able to use their
strength to the fullest - assassin stars and exori san/con are ranged,
same with mages's spells - knights will once more be limited to losing
their two biggest features - exori gran and the high HP. One way or
another, the hammer will strike knights even harder, and without
something to cushion the blow, you're definetely gonna look into a lot
of angry knights, who have lost their healing, their magic abilities,
and now will also loose their (already limited) PVP abilities.
--Delixu
________________
The Shadow Hunter
“When we truly realize that we are all alone is when we need others the most.”
Ronald Anthony |
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| 28.08.2010 18:25:02 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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Originally posted by Craban on 28.08.2010 18:08:25:
> Concerning knights as blockers:
>
> What if we were to add a spell for knights called
> "stance". This would basically mean that the knight
> makes himself unmovable and unswappable for a certain
> time (similar to mwalls), but he could also not
> perform any aggressive moves during that time.
>
> I can however only introduce this spell when we can
> also put a higher delay on it than it lasts so that
> there must be a few seconds during which that knight
> can be moved. That would basically enable him to use
> himself as something similar to a wild growth /
> mwall.
>
> What do you think?
that has potential, my first thoughts are that it would give knights a
purpose and would be a realistic way to help with defense.
We just tested some defense scenarios, (we need more practice at it )
There were a few things I saw with how the swap feature works that can
make it interesting. The new delays are noticeable and slow things
down. But with team work you can do a "double swap" which lets you swap
back the person trying to break the defense.
This is something that will take a lot of practice and teamwork for a defense team to pull off.
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| 28.08.2010 18:27:21 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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also wanted to add, we tested "self defense".
Nymet attacked me, I was fighting back in self defense. I became trapped, and was able to swap with mymet.
The whole key is who attacks first is the person that does not get to swap.
This can be used to make traps. Use a lower level to annoy a higher
level, get that higher level to attack. The noob runs into a trap
situation, and the rest of the team moves in to close the trap. Since
the higher level attacked first, he can't swap out of the trap.
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| 28.08.2010 18:29:54 |
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Arcnagett
Senator
Inhabitant of Valoria
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 107
Ivory Guardian of the Elysium (Veritas vos Liberabit)
Posts: 11147
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@ Craban:
Originally posted by Craban on 28.08.2010 12:53:06:
> Originally posted by Arcnagett on 28.08.2010
> 05:15:33: Found a failure in the system.
>
> I don't consider this a failure, it is still a choice
> player 3 has. If he decides to attack 2 as first
> attacker, then he decided to fight and not swap.
In that situation i was unable to swap, there was another player between
me and the attacker and i couldn't swap with that player, for what i
understood from the explanation, i should be able to do it.
So a player who is surrounded by 8 other players/scenario and is
attacked by people arround that 8 players just can't get out. Was it
intended to be that way?
________________
Veritas vos liberabit...
Proud Tutor and Senior Tutor from 01/01/2007 to 18/03/2010 |
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28.08.2010 20:23:22
Edited by Arcnagett
on 28.08.2010 20:24:12 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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@Arcnagett,
I have been involved in many different tests of the pull/swap, and what
you are describing has NOT been a problem. The only time the blocked
person could not swap was when they had previously done damage, or they
were just swapped with and have the 5 second delay, but after those 5
seconds the swap would work.
I would be glad to walk through a few tests with you if we can both get online at the same time.
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| 28.08.2010 21:42:08 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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General Comments - warning wall of text. :)
The
pull/swap seems to be the most controversial issue, and part of that is
because of the many different impacts and the many different factors
that influence it.
I wanted to back up a minute and do a little review.
I asked myself why do we have the pull/swap and what is it suppose to be for.
- #1. Non-war chars interfering in wars, aka noob blockers.
- #2. Pk traps that do not give the victim any chance at all to
escape, traps that have been heavily abused to cause a lot of harm to
innocent people.
There it is plain and simple. There are 2 reasons for it, one for war mode, and one for non-war mode.
I want to comment on these 2 things separately, and I think by doing so it will make the whole situation a lot clearer.
Let me start with non-war.
This is where pk'rs do not give a victim any change, and many times the
only way to escape is by taking a skull, which actually causes more harm
to the victim.
The pull/swap is a huge success when it comes to giving the victim a
chance to escape. For non-war purposes, we have succeeded with what we
have come up with.
For non-war mode we have also found that the pull/swap can be used to
break a defense that a pk team is using. This IMHO is another success,
and allows the community a means to seek retribution on the pk'rs.
Now let's talk about the war mode effects.
As long as the war fighters do not attack any of the unskulled chars,
you can swap with them, which is a success for what we were wanting to
accomplish.
For those in low health, or being hit on by big combo's, even a small
interference can cause a death, but in these cases you were probably
gonna die anyways. There is only so much we can do, and IMHO this is a
great measure to eliminate the noob interference problems.
Now we have the downfall of the pull/swap for war mode.
Traps and defense.
The pull/swap gives a war enemy too much of an ability to escape, and I
believe that the war fighters would say this is a serious problem.
The pull/swap gives an enemy too easy of a route to break through a defense, which puts a small team at a bad disadvantage.
I believe that the solution to this is to make the delay to use the pull
swap longer for the blockers that are in war mode, or make it where you
simply can not swap with someone that is in war mode.
You can still swap with a char not in war mode, the delay or no swap would only apply to blockers that have war skull.
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| 28.08.2010 21:54:15 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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About the "stance" spell idea:
I am also very fond of this idea, but please note: We cannot do that
together with this update. Maybe this is possible with the winter
update, but I cannot promise anything.
About the war mode idea:
Well, the problem with doing blocking rules differently in war mode than
outside is this: If people in war mode will not be able to break
through the defense of their enemies but people outside the war mode
will, then we force the war fighters to again use non-war-mode chars for
this job which basically means we would be back to square one
concerning the outside influence.
We either have to find a way that makes it not too easy to break through
for everyone while still maintaining the new escape potential, or have
to live with the fact that defenses will not work as they do now or we
have to scrap the whole feature.
I do not think we can find a way to apply these rules differently inside
war mode and outside without having the same problem again with non war
characters influencing wars.
________________
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28.08.2010 22:55:34
Edited by Craban
on 28.08.2010 22:56:10 |
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Swapping
positions works so far [as far as I know] and each time a new attack is
made, the person is able to switch places with anyone again (even if in
the 1st attack they already swapped with the player). It makes it
generally impossible to be trapped, which is great against mage bombs.
I do agree that the orange box should only surround those you are allowed to switch with.
Aestyn
________________
| 12:43
Penny: You ARE Aestyn, aren't you? <giggles> That's called vanity
search... looking what you find under your own name. Teehee! That joke
only works once though. |
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| 29.08.2010 00:07:17 |
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Regular
area attack runes like avalanche seemed to show the system working as
intended. But we didn't test if a fire bomb would allow the aggressor to
change places with people.
Elleandor
Originally posted by Aestyn on 29.08.2010 00:07:17:
> Swapping positions works so far [as far as I know]
> and each time a new attack is made, the person is
> able to switch places with anyone again (even if in
> the 1st attack they already swapped with the player).
> It makes it generally impossible to be trapped, which
> is great against mage bombs.
>
> I do agree that the orange box should only surround
> those you are allowed to switch with.
>
> Aestyn
________________
He helps others most, who shows them how to help themselves.
- A. P. Gouthey |
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| 29.08.2010 00:10:43 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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Originally posted by Craban on 28.08.2010 22:55:34:
>
About the "stance" spell idea:
>
> I am also very fond of this idea, but please note: We
> cannot do that together with this update. Maybe this
> is possible with the winter update, but I cannot
> promise anything.
The way this is shaping up, increasing the war mode defense would be a logical "phase 2" process.
>
>
About the war mode idea:
>
> Well, the problem with doing blocking rules
> differently in war mode than outside is this: If
> people in war mode will not be able to break through
> the defense of their enemies but people outside the
> war mode will, then we force the war fighters to
> again use non-war-mode chars for this job which
> basically means we would be back to square one
> concerning the outside influence.
Yes, the non-war people could breech a defense, but would they attack a guild team and have to take skulls?
Also, the enemy would still be stopped, so how many of the non-war
people would they use to try to break the defense? This is where the
fair fight, pvp blessing, and revenge skull rules will come into play.
The non-war person moving past defense was the only weakness we saw.
> We either have to find a way that makes it not too
> easy to break through for everyone while still
> maintaining the new escape potential
2. In our in-game discussion we came up with the idea of having the
defensive knight do a new spell, where he acts like a "door" that only
his guild mates can go past. So while he is alive they are protected
and he is using the strong "stance" spell to block the passage against
even non-war people.
To prevent ghosting, the knight would invite his guild mates into the
defense area and use a variant of the pull/swap to move his guild mates
past him into the defensive area.
This also allows guild mates that are "late" to still get into the defense area without having to break the defense.
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| 29.08.2010 00:36:57 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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with some help, we slowly walked thru using the pullswap to test the effects of field runes.
First, pull/swap does work to get into a stack, so my earlier problems
on that much have been from me having a delay that I was not aware of.
On the field runes, if you put one under your feet and do the swap right
away, you get a ws, AND the person you pull onto the rune is getting
hit with pvp damage so he too can swap.
If you wait the 5 seconds, you do not get a skull, and the person pulled
onto the fire field is now getting elemental damage, so he can NOT
swap.
IMHO, the easiest solution is to make elemental damage like that count
as pvp damage so the person can swap, or make the swap work like a
destroy field rune.
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| 29.08.2010 00:41:17 |
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Hi
Just one stupid question: If 2 players swap at the exactly the same moment. Who will swap?
If noone, I hope that the double not swapped player does not get any delay for swapping back.
________________
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| 29.08.2010 18:59:20 |
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Could someone test this?
I
will be away from my computer for the next few hours but a scenario
came to mind while I was falling asleep last night... Maybe one of you
can test this.
Similar to a low level swapping into the quest door problem that Borr tested -
If someone is blocked next to a pz zone and gets hit, can they swap
places with someone inside the pz (ie dp) thus pulling them out of a pz?
(for example do people in a pz get the orange square)
Or can someone with pz lock swap places into a pz?
Hopefully these aren't possible.
Elleandor
________________
He helps others most, who shows them how to help themselves.
- A. P. Gouthey |
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| 29.08.2010 20:52:15 |
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Originally posted by Sir Elleandor:
> I will be away from my computer for the next few
> hours but a scenario came to mind while I was falling
> asleep last night... Maybe one of you can test this.
>
> Similar to a low level swapping into the quest door
> problem that Borr tested -
>
> If someone is blocked next to a pz zone and gets hit,
> can they swap places with someone inside the pz (ie
> dp) thus pulling them out of a pz? (for example do
> people in a pz get the orange square)
>
> Or can someone with pz lock swap places into a pz?
>
> Hopefully these aren't possible.
Don't worry, that is impossible. We did test it, same for players that
are standing in their front door (would be a nice way to hop into a
house and steal items from innocent bystanders). It seems that someone
in a PZ can never get an orange square around him - so it is never
possible to swap position with someone in PZ.
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| 29.08.2010 21:00:33 |
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Alexena
Inhabitant of Lunara
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 188
Moon Shadow of the Azure Twilight
Posts: 962
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Trying the stack theory outside the house.
Now as we have heard that while swapping people of lower levels can be
dragged through doors into higher level areas will it work the same way
for house stack and pull ?
Hard to test ofc on the test server as all houses unowned.
Oh and Magus could not swap places when a couple of us attackers stood on a dog, and he was trapped with mw's all around.
We tried it with a summons too so this will make for a mage paradise to
trap people with summons with or without a stack i guess, as the poor
victim is trying to deal with the summons , his attackers, heal and try
swapping faster after he kills said summons, if he is still alive that
is. |
29.08.2010 21:12:54
Edited by Alexena
on 29.08.2010 21:29:14 |
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Okay cool! Thanks Borr.
So you can not get an orange box in a pz, but is there a way to keep the orange box when you enter a pz and run into the same possible problem?
EDIT: Couldn't think of a scenario where someone could walk into a pz
and keep an orange square. However, we found an interesting
inconsistency with the rules when someone has their back to a pz they
could still get trapped if they attacked someone else (even if a white
skull attacking a friend) which we are concerned could become a new trap
in wars. Alecto will be posting with more details below.
Elleandor
Originally posted by Borr Henceforth on 29.08.2010 21:00:33:
> Originally posted by Sir Elleandor:
> > I will be away from my computer for the next few
> > hours but a scenario came to mind while I was
> falling
> > asleep last night... Maybe one of you can test
> this.
> >
> > Similar to a low level swapping into the quest
> door
> > problem that Borr tested -
> >
> > If someone is blocked next to a pz zone and gets
> hit,
> > can they swap places with someone inside the pz
> (ie
> > dp) thus pulling them out of a pz? (for example do
> > people in a pz get the orange square)
> >
> > Or can someone with pz lock swap places into a pz?
> >
> > Hopefully these aren't possible.
>
> Don't worry, that is impossible. We did test it, same
> for players that are standing in their front door
> (would be a nice way to hop into a house and steal
> items from innocent bystanders). It seems that
> someone in a PZ can never get an orange square around
> him - so it is never possible to swap position with
> someone in PZ.
________________
He helps others most, who shows them how to help themselves.
- A. P. Gouthey |
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30.08.2010 00:33:39
Edited by Sir Elleandor
on 30.08.2010 06:14:31 |
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Arcnagett
Senator
Inhabitant of Valoria
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 107
Ivory Guardian of the Elysium (Veritas vos Liberabit)
Posts: 11147
|
@ Alecto Misc:
The situation i tested may only happend on narrow 1 sqm corridors, where
only 4 players can lead to this happening. I might be able to log in
tomorow night and test it with you
Oddly enough, i tested it with Alecto Misc and it worked as it should. I'll try it again later on the same spot as before.
________________
Veritas vos liberabit...
Proud Tutor and Senior Tutor from 01/01/2007 to 18/03/2010 |
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30.08.2010 05:01:29
Edited by Arcnagett
on 30.08.2010 06:14:23 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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Arcnagett,
Was fun doing the testing, not sure why you had that problem the other night, but it worked fine tonight.
Test that spot in sva~ again to see if you have that same problem again.
@Craban,
We found an interesting situation. We went to the boat and had 9 chars making a 3 X 3 square on the ramp.
B123
B456
B789
B = boat
C = 1 - 9 are the chars
Here is what we did. #8 took ws on #5
#7 attacked #8 to help "defend" his friend (#5)
#4 attacked #7
#7 could NOT swap with anyone!
The reason is that #7 got a pz lock when he attacked the white skull. This means he can not go into pz.
So when the system checked to see if #7 was trapped, it did not take his
pz lock into consideration, and because the pz was "open", there were
not any chars in it, the system thought he had a way out so he was not
given the opportunity to swap. The problem is with the pz lock, he
could not move into pz.
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| 30.08.2010 06:19:36 |
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Página 4:
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Using
imageshack instead of a fansite like I saw others do somewhere else for
the same reasons they mentioned:
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/8975/screenshot003c.jpg
Trapped.
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| 30.08.2010 08:00:46 |
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Hi
Originally posted by Blue Magical Jess on 30.08.2010 08:00:46:
> Using imageshack instead of a fansite like I saw
> others do somewhere else for the same reasons they
> mentioned:
> http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/8975/screenshot003 [Do not look at external websites. Your account could be hacked.]
> c.jpg
>
> Trapped.
Cast magic wall behind you, then swap
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| 30.08.2010 08:33:59 |
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Then after the mwall swap the aggressor is now trapped for good right?
Originally posted by Magus Firefly on 30.08.2010 08:33:59:
> Hi
>
> Originally posted by Blue Magical Jess on
> 30.08.2010 08:00:46:
> > Using imageshack instead of a fansite like I saw
> > others do somewhere else for the same reasons they
> > mentioned:
> >
> http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/8975/screensh
> ot003 [Do not look at external websites. Your account could be hacked.]
> > c.jpg
> >
> > Trapped.
>
> Cast magic wall behind you, then swap
________________
He helps others most, who shows them how to help themselves.
- A. P. Gouthey |
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| 30.08.2010 08:39:20 |
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Cathbad
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 103
Posts: 132
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Tim, The Guard (Thais west gate) +1, can be used to block the 1x sqm passage to south. Impossible to swap.
________________
Ancients may be gone, but their magic is not.
Time ago I dreamed magic for the moon, and she still dances for me now
as she did then. Cathbad is my name, and I'm still dreaming. |
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30.08.2010 09:15:29
Edited by Cathbad
on 30.08.2010 09:17:50 |
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k... Bad choice of char, better trap: http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/9711/screenshot019zq.jpg
And I noticed you can shoot through the book shelves lol
Originally posted by Cathbad on 30.08.2010 09:15:29:
> Tim, The Guard (Thais west gate) +1, can be used to
> block the 1x sqm passage to south. Impossible to
> swap.
Screenshot: http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/2153/screenshot020e.jpg
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30.08.2010 09:16:58
Edited by Blue Magical Jess
on 30.08.2010 09:20:46 |
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One
thing im not seeing here or in any test so far is that all of them have
been done within the confines of a city. Most common random pk's occur
at hunting grounds or near them, or at choke points on the map (Such as
the dwarf bridge and the kaz passage) Those are the kind of
attacks/jumpings I want to test, not really much of a city attack but a
hunting/near grounds attack where it is most common.
I wish to test it near hunting grounds to test survivability of the
victim to escape with the pull swap, not the ability to easily trap with
little problems or trying different formations. Hopefully we can try
that 8pm gmt today.
________________
As the old saying goes... "Fifty NO's and one YES means YES!"
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30.08.2010 14:19:28
Edited by Nymet
on 30.08.2010 14:23:44 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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Originally posted by Sir Elleandor on 30.08.2010 08:39:20:
> Then after the mwall swap the aggressor is now
> trapped for good right?
>
That is correct.
If you get someone to attack you first, lead them to a "dead end"
passage, swap with them so they become trapped, and call in your friends
to make it a literal "dead end" for that aggressor.
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| 30.08.2010 15:15:51 |
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@
Alecto: that "aggressor" could be you coming to assist a friend who is
being attacked by a group of pks. Don't you think that even the
aggressor should be able to swap in scenarios where if he got the kill
it would be a justified kill?
________________
He helps others most, who shows them how to help themselves.
- A. P. Gouthey |
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| 30.08.2010 16:45:59 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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Improvements underway, check first post for details.
________________
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| 30.08.2010 17:16:42 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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Originally posted by Craban on 27.08.2010 13:16:14:
>
> - Not sure yet whether I should call this an
> improvement or a bug: someone being trapped at the
> border to an open PZ does not get to swap but cannot
> enter that pz due to PZ block when fighting.
IMHO I would have to call it a bug, because the pz block is making the
pz act like a wall. It is not possible to walk into pz, so the
character does NOT have any tiles they can walk to, they are trapped!
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| 30.08.2010 18:11:55 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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Originally posted by Sir Elleandor on 30.08.2010 16:45:59:
> @ Alecto: that "aggressor" could be you coming to
> assist a friend who is being attacked by a group of
> pks. Don't you think that even the aggressor should
> be able to swap in scenarios where if he got the kill
> it would be a justified kill?
That is a hard question. It is a 2 edge blade, where what can help you can also kill you.
There are some scenarios where ya, we can say who is the "bad" guy, and
that they are the one that should be trapped. But the problem is
defining all of those scenarios, and that I think is going to be a
problem.
There are times where you can make a kill "justified" and still be the
"bad guy" such as the person wearing an orange skull that gets attacked
by someone seeking revenge.
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| 30.08.2010 18:14:36 |
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Arcnagett
Senator
Inhabitant of Valoria
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 107
Ivory Guardian of the Elysium (Veritas vos Liberabit)
Posts: 11147
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@ Alecto Misc:
For some odd reason, i still get the same problem we tested yesterday in
that particular spot in Svargrond. I'm going to try to find another
test case arround.
PS.: found another place, narrow corridor in front of Darashia 2, Flat 11 and Flat 18. I tested it with doors open and closed.
As for the "who is the bad guy" issue, from a technical point of view,
pretty hard to define. What we can say is: "whoever is in a battle
should have the option to get out of a trap unless he was agressive to
someone". The bad guy tends to attack people, so he tends to be the
agressor more often, so he tends to be able to swap less.
________________
Veritas vos liberabit...
Proud Tutor and Senior Tutor from 01/01/2007 to 18/03/2010 |
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31.08.2010 03:38:05
Edited by Arcnagett
on 31.08.2010 03:49:31 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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Originally posted by Arcnagett on 31.08.2010 03:38:05:
> @ Alecto Misc:
>
> For some odd reason, i still get the same problem we
> tested yesterday in that particular spot in
> Svargrond. I'm going to try to find another test case
> arround.
>
> PS.: found another place, narrow corridor in front of
> Darashia 2, Flat 11 and Flat 18. I tested it with
> doors open and closed.
It sounds like it is time for that to be investigated. Perhaps there is something about the map in that area.
Post a time when you will be on and hopefully a few of us or a pm can go with you to check it out.
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| 31.08.2010 04:59:04 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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Ok, we decided that the PZ border thing is a bug and fixed it. Will also come online today.
________________
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| 31.08.2010 09:05:43 |
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Arcnagett
Senator
Inhabitant of Valoria
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 107
Ivory Guardian of the Elysium (Veritas vos Liberabit)
Posts: 11147
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@ Alecto Misc:
I'll be online at night after college, thinking a bit about it, one
point in common was that those places were all beside a house. When we
tested in Thais there was water and plants arround, on those other
places i had a house wall arround me. Maybe that issue with PZ could be
causing it?
It would be nice to have it tested after today's patch.
________________
Veritas vos liberabit...
Proud Tutor and Senior Tutor from 01/01/2007 to 18/03/2010 |
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| 31.08.2010 13:28:34 |
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Alegard
Inhabitant of Vinera
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 133
The Center of the Circle of Trust (Circle Founder)
Posts: 974
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 Disadvantage for Knights?
The first day i logged to test, i had this experience.
I dont tend to get skulled, in fact i try my best to avoid getting
skulled all the time, so i thought it would be better to find a skulled
character and do a bit of "Justice Seeker" kind of scenario.
Soon enough i found some corpses around Thais, all of them killed by an Elder Druid called Benja.
I used magic to track him and found him relaxing in front of the Depot
Building, still white Skulled, so i challenged him and started throwing
Assassin Stars at him, as i would do to bring down a PKer, even
resorting to some Divine Missiles. He ran into the narrow alley that
ended near Thais Castle, and i followed him.
At some point he stood still in the middle of the corridor and i got so
close to him as to be able to do melee damage, i guess i was expecting
him to resume running or try to convince me with words to spare him, but
instead, the little devil did this:
He quickly used a Magic Wall rune to trap himself between me and the
wall, swapped places with me and trapped me with a Wild Growth spell! He
even dared to attack me some before running away, i broke free of that
trap soon, surprised of what i just saw.
I learned to be more careful not to get so close as to let my opponent
trap himself to swap with me, but then i thought, how can a Knight
avoid that?
I still am not sure if it was what the pull/swap feature was meant for
or an abuse of it, i would like to hear some opinions about it.
@Benja: I take my wayfarer hat off for you, you certainly have some great PvP moves.
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| 31.08.2010 20:06:16 |
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Yes,
somehow it seems like an abuse if you use a magic wall to trap yourself
and then be able to swap. Is there any way that the client can read if
it is your magic wall or someone elses? Or perhaps a more simple
solution would be to not allow a swap x seconds (length of magic wall)
after you shoot one.
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| 31.08.2010 21:44:05 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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IMHO that is nothing more than great strategy.
When you attacked the skull, you were not defending yourself, you were
being the aggressor. Nothing in that has changed. And in many
situations like this, people only attack a skull they feel they can
kill, because they are offering themselves up as a "justified" kill to
the skulled char they are attacking.
The swap worked as it should have, you went into a trap, and he used strategy to spring it and use it to his advantage.
As I mentioned earlier, this is a 2 edged sword, it can cut both ways!
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| 31.08.2010 22:30:42 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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Originally posted by Arcnagett on 31.08.2010 13:28:34:
> @ Alecto Misc:
>
> I'll be online at night after college, thinking a bit
> about it, one point in common was that those places
> were all beside a house. When we tested in Thais
> there was water and plants arround, on those other
> places i had a house wall arround me. Maybe that
> issue with PZ could be causing it?
>
> It would be nice to have it tested after today's
> patch.
I had some rl things that came up tonight where I wasn't able to log on when I wanted to.
When I finally could log on, you were on line.
I went to send you a message, but it was right as you logged off, so I just barely missed you.
Perhaps tomorrow we can test that out.
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| 01.09.2010 03:38:04 |
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Arcnagett
Senator
Inhabitant of Valoria
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 107
Ivory Guardian of the Elysium (Veritas vos Liberabit)
Posts: 11147
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I am online right now
________________
Veritas vos liberabit...
Proud Tutor and Senior Tutor from 01/01/2007 to 18/03/2010 |
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| 01.09.2010 03:40:40 |
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Página 5:
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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@
Alegard: I agree with Alecto, it was great strategy and that is
actually a strategy that has to be possible. If we were to not count
those mwalls, people would indeed just build traps with 2 fields in the
middle and again, there would be hardly anything you could do if the
trappers also keep refiring fire fields onto both fiels so you cannot
pull anyone in there.
I think this is really good as it is.
________________
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| 01.09.2010 08:36:34 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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Fixes online, see first post.
________________
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| 01.09.2010 20:03:20 |
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Alexena
Inhabitant of Lunara
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 188
Moon Shadow of the Azure Twilight
Posts: 962
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Just a thought i keep forgetting to mention.
How does the swap feature affect party mode, has anyone tried it ? Can
those in the same party if after attacking each other be able to pull
swap, no major big deal i think, except for the quest services where
there is always some numb nuts wanting to mess about and try ruin it for
others by getting them killed. |
| 03.09.2010 09:02:40 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
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We
tested it being in war mode on Optional, Open and Hardcore
environments: once you've dealt pvp damage to a char, you can't swap
with it. Given that party works like war system, there souldn't be
troubles.
Nevertheless, we can try it when the TS will come back.
Aleppe
[edit]
Oops:
I've forgotten about all the tests in party mode I've done yesterday
with tons of players at Thais East gate while showing them how
swaps/stacks work.
I can confirm that it works like intended.
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03.09.2010 12:47:36
Edited by Aleppe
on 03.09.2010 12:55:40 |
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Alexena
Inhabitant of Lunara
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 188
Moon Shadow of the Azure Twilight
Posts: 962
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Ah ok thanks, good to know
Another thought that came to mind, now that the problem with summons and
standing on creature has been solved regarding the pull swap, what
about people using troughs and those house plants.
Where Magus and i and some others tried our little test in Thais with
the doggy and the summons, anyone can be in his house open the package
and toss it out to a vantage spot and boom the player coming down the
stairs is stuck.
Also i was playing on my non pvp server and someone had taken the time
to take these wretched house package plants open them at home and then
lure them to a rotty hole in dara, traaaap.
I would love to see things like troughs and these house plants either
be unmovable, in the trough case and the house plant so that u can walk
over. |
| 04.09.2010 09:25:17 |
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I
believe both can be destroy via "USE" weapon on them, 100% sure on
troughs, not so 100% sure on plants but I think its possile.
________________
As the old saying goes... "Fifty NO's and one YES means YES!"
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| 04.09.2010 17:57:23 |
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Green-dragon
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 114
Valkyrie Archer of the Valhalla (Grooaar of Groa)
Posts: 3272
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Yep, it's possible. We destroyed a whole bunch of em once when someone trashed my friend's house with it .
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| 05.09.2010 11:15:57 |
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Alexena
Inhabitant of Lunara
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 188
Moon Shadow of the Azure Twilight
Posts: 962
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Yes
thank you i am well aware that i can mash them with my sword, but on
the non pvp world I'm a wee little sorc and dont really have the cap to
carry around a melee weapon, and have you tried swiping at those damned
plants? and see how long it takes to break one, lol.
Once some character decided to hinder the players who were doing the
Yalahar quest running between Yala and Telas in Edron and blocked the
whole darn bridge with these plants, it would take me anything from 3 to
10 hits and more to break one plant, so yeah great when your health is
low and the monsters are attacking while your bashing your way through
potted plants
Aaaaaaaaand if you are actually trapped and standing on these items how do you hit on it then
See my problem now.
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05.09.2010 12:34:41
Edited by Alexena
on 05.09.2010 12:35:24 |
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well
if you were trapped and there is these plants surrounding you + on top
of you, you can still bash your way out and move those that are on top
of you over, tho I dont think we have tested swapping ontop of objects
you cant move across, sorc or druid, that's the disadvantage of them,
you get great power for a trade off in weight. and there is plenty of
mid and high lv sorc/druids that I know of that carry a small weapon
with them to deal with these things, you cant please everyone at every
lv.
+ I should note it probably takes some good cash, lots of planning, and
timing to pull off this kind of thing and some good foresight. Either
way I dont think it will become a serious issue unless it happens on a
mass scale.
________________
As the old saying goes... "Fifty NO's and one YES means YES!"
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05.09.2010 17:34:13
Edited by Nymet
on 05.09.2010 17:37:17 |
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Hi
Originally posted by Nymet on 05.09.2010 17:34:13:
> well if you were trapped and there is these plants
> surrounding you + on top of you, you can still bash
> your way out and move those that are on top of you
> over, tho I dont think we have tested swapping ontop
> of objects you cant move across, sorc or druid,
> that's the disadvantage of them, you get great power
> for a trade off in weight. and there is plenty of mid
> and high lv sorc/druids that I know of that carry a
> small weapon with them to deal with these things, you
> cant please everyone at every lv.
>
> + I should note it probably takes some good cash,
> lots of planning, and timing to pull off this kind of
> thing and some good foresight. Either way I dont
> think it will become a serious issue unless it
> happens on a mass scale.
Agreed. I even carry a knife in my more or less peaceful optional pvp
world, you never know when you need it (for instance to destroy spider
webs or to help someone to enter deeper banuta area).
I would love to test all those changes in the test server. But it looks
it will come online when I dont have time like often before sadly
________________
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| 05.09.2010 18:01:29 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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Originally posted by Nymet on 05.09.2010 17:34:13:
> I know of that carry a
> small weapon with them to deal with these things, you
> cant please everyone at every lv.
>
machette
it is a "sword" weapon, and also useful for removing tall grass in certain areas on the map.
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| 05.09.2010 19:53:22 |
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Alexena
Inhabitant of Lunara
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 188
Moon Shadow of the Azure Twilight
Posts: 962
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Hello guys your missing my point here lolz.
The issue is not with what i can bash it with to get it out of my way
BUT CAN i get rid of it, if it is used to lay a trap, so i cant pull
swap .
And yes i say again one can bash away at them to get free but low in
health while being attacked by player or monster its like will you
survive long enough bashing plants..
Are we not here to eliminate the possibility of abuse when players see
the pull swap working to the disadvantage of the pk and teams you bet
your sweet butt they will find a way around it, and using plants and
troughs will be one of them for sure, which will then defeat the whole
object of what we are trying to achieve here.
And besides i thought luring and trapping in non pvp worlds is illegal
anyway, so whats the harm in making the plants so you can walk on and
over them and the troughs non movable.
Let pvp skills and trapping be a human skill and not basing it on in game inconsistencies and weaknesses. |
| 06.09.2010 13:45:59 |
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I
didn't know where to post this, but what happened to the proposal where
people who are not in war-mode, not being able to heal people in war
mode while they are being attacked by their war mode enemies?
If I remember right, everyone agreed to this and I didn't see not a
single negative to it. I'm also asking because a few friends of mine say
they wont start playing again until 1) non-war mode chars can't trap
war mode players 2) non war-mode characters can't heal war mode players
in action
________________
| I'ma make you hate me, cos you ain't me. |
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| 06.09.2010 17:49:26 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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Originally posted by Emzy Thainheart on 06.09.2010 17:49:26:
> I didn't know where to post this, but what happened
> to the proposal where people who are not in war-mode,
> not being able to heal people in war mode while they
> are being attacked by their war mode enemies?
That is in phase 2. Check the focus group thread on what craban is taking to the internal discussions.
>
> If I remember right, everyone agreed to this and I
> didn't see not a single negative to it. I'm also
> asking because a few friends of mine say they wont
> start playing again until 1) non-war mode chars can't
> trap war mode players 2) non war-mode characters
> can't heal war mode players in action
With the fall patch the swap feature makes it where non-war charts will
not be able to trap those in war battles, so we are half way there for
what you want.
In phase 2 you get the second thing about non-war healing those in war.
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| 06.09.2010 22:06:21 |
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Alexana
your making a big deal about something thats not going to be
threatening. plants and troughs cannot be picked up, therefore you have
to be in the area where the stuff spawns for it to really work, and once
its destroyed you have to wait till the SS for it to return.
2nd its really difficult to move those plants and troughs around, I
should know I threw a bunch of chairs which have the same moving
properties minus the cannot stand on its square half way across from
thais to the entrance near fibula and it took forever, not to mention I
passed like 5 different people who could have easily intercepted me. in
fact if it wasnt for a friend to come and help me move the chairs it
would have taken me twice as long to position the stuff.
3rd if in the sad position that somehow you fell for and got trapped,
you CAN escape with or without swapping so in fact it doesnt break any
system, its just an object youll have to remove first. not just that,
the attacker has to KNOW you will be in the area of the plants and
troughs or else it wont work because its a pain in the arse to position
the stuff correctly. Now tell me what kind of PKer sits in a random
spawn or something like with troughs or plants in the area or taken, for
like some 2 hours waiting for you to get there, then spring the trap
with 4 or 5 buddies...
Your better blocking using yourself at this point 2 hours ago where ever
you were. Just think of plants and troughs as a bonus in traps, that
doesn't slow you down too much.
________________
As the old saying goes... "Fifty NO's and one YES means YES!"
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| 06.09.2010 23:43:53 |
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Alexena
Inhabitant of Lunara
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 188
Moon Shadow of the Azure Twilight
Posts: 962
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If its a game inconsistency what is your problem to get rid of it. ?
How the heck do you know its not going to be abused where is your crystal ball ?
I know damn well how plants troughs and other furniture garbage that can
block get onto the streets and hunting spots to be dangerous and yes
people do use it seen it often enough.
No one has still answered my question that if your standing on a plant
how do you then break it when there is no where else to move
To beat a criminal you have to think like one, you want to think with your head in the sand thats fine Nymet
Im done here and will leave it up to the Tibian Gods.
They have made wise moves in the past regarding traps like the parcel
furniture one in the house door way i really dont see why it cant be
taken a step further.
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| 07.09.2010 09:27:13 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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Ok, so just explain to me in short which the questionable things are, please.
- If you are trapped also using such items, then they will count towards
the trap. That means that if at least one of those 8 fields around you
is a creature, you can swap. If not, then yes, you will have to destroy
some of those things if you cannot push them either. That, I do not
consider much of a problem.
- The second issue seems to be in cases where these things are put below
e.g. a ramp, so that you land on top of one of those and in a trap.
Generally speaking, at places where you can actually land on top of such
an item, you can also go back the way you came in (back up the ramp
etc). Exceptions are one way holes / teleports and being kicked out of a
house that you cannot enter anymore. Both cases are restricted to very
very rare locations. Looking at it like that, is there a bigger problem
coming from this?
Is there anything else I missed?
________________
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| 09.09.2010 18:07:39 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
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Is there anything else I missed?
=> Yup (and following)
@ all:
that's a Focus Group link, that's why you can't open it.
________________
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09.09.2010 18:27:01
Edited by Aleppe
on 09.09.2010 18:39:45 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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Ah
yes, I read about this a few days ago already. Generally, I understand
the concern. However, I would prefer trying to work on such passages
from content design.
Apart from that, we'll consider all sorts of spell options and
improvements soon and I'll remember this issue there too. For this test
though, I would prefer not doing anything hastily, especially this kind
of "violation" of a spell.
________________
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| 09.09.2010 20:51:14 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
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^ kk
@ You can now also swap with all summons and all monsters that can be
pushed. Additionally, like on Optional PvP you can now generally push
all summons, even if that monster would usually not be pushable.
I'm checking all these summons. When done I'll update here the result.
Just a prevew: I can push wolves (not summoned) but can't swap with them (while receiving pvp damage, ofc).
- Cockroach
- Skunk
- Rat
- Badger
- Snake
- Spider
- Chicken
- Cat
- Dog
- Rabbit
- Silver Rabbit
- Squirrel
- Enraged Squirrel
- Sheep
- Black Sheep
- Flamingo
- Green Frog
- Parrot
- Seagull
- Bat
- Cave Rat
- Bug
- Sandcrawler
- Pig
- Wolf
- Deer
- Winter Wolf
- Poison Spider
- Hyaena
- Cobra
- Wasp
- Penguin
- Troll
- Island Troll
- Goblin
- Goblin Leader
- Frost Troll
- Bear
- Panda
- Orc
- Skeleton
- Crazed Beggar
- Crab
- Orc Spearman
- Scorpion
- Polar Bear
- Swamp Troll
- Lion
- Elf
- Dwarf
- Minotaur
- Centipede
- Troll Champion
- Crocodile
- Skeleton Warrior
- Larva
- Orc Warrior
- Dwarf Soldier
- Elf Scout
- Smuggler
- Amazon
- Minotaur Archer
- Scarab
- Toad
- Nomadv
- Husky
- Tiger
- Dwarf Miner
- Wild Warrior
- Bandit
- Ghoul
- Valkyrie
- Gnarlhound
- Tarantula
- Cyclops
- Frost Giantess
- Terror Bird
- Elephant
- Blood Crab
- Terramite
- Fire Devil
- Minotaur Guard
- Stone Golem
- Orc Berserker
- Monk
- Demon Skeleton
- Orc Leader
- Dwarf Guard
- Fire Elemental
- Gozzler
________________
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| 10.09.2010 12:46:13 |
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Página 6:
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Ordfin Pall
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 126
Posts: 260
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13:00 Fixor [305]: we got someone who's bugged here btw, he lost his name & hp aboce his head lol
13:01 Fixor [305]: 12:56 You see Xarcid (Level 186). He is an elite knight.
13:01 Fixor [305]: he was in a stack and when he swapped out
13:01 Fixor [305]: he lost hisname
Comment sent via ctrl+z too.
________________
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| 10.09.2010 13:00:37 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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Originally posted by Ordfin Pall on 10.09.2010 13:00:37:
> 13:00 Fixor [305]: we got someone who's bugged here
> btw, he lost his name & hp aboce his head lol
> 13:01 Fixor [305]: 12:56 You see Xarcid (Level 186).
> He is an elite knight.
> 13:01 Fixor [305]: he was in a stack and when he
> swapped out
> 13:01 Fixor [305]: he lost hisname
>
> Comment sent via ctrl+z too.
Can you get more detail to reproduce this, cause when I checked him, I saw his name.
Who cannot see this name and hp anymore? Everyone or just himself?
Those who did not see his name and hp, did they all see all other names and hp?
He was in a stack and swapped from there, right? How far down do you have to be in the stack for this to happen?
can we really exclude that accidentally the hotkey for this display option was hit?
Greets
Crab
________________
|
10.09.2010 13:17:32
Edited by Craban
on 10.09.2010 13:23:12 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
|
3:46 Fixor [305]: HE was in the stack
13:46 Fixor [305]: and swapped out
13:46 Fixor [305]: at that moment
13:46 Fixor [305]: he didn't had any skull/hp/name
13:46 Fixor [305]: but everyone else had
13:46 Fixor [305]: i redid ctrl+n
13:46 Fixor [305]: and the guy with who he swapped
13:46 Fixor [305]: said, wth? ->
13:46 Fixor [305]: i wasn't the only one seeing it
13:47 Fixor [305]: but i just saw him again and it was normal again
Another issue: a player can't swap with his own summons. Is it intended to work so?
Aleppe
[edit]
So creatures and own summons are swappable: the problem we had got
testing them was that one needs to drag himself into the summon/mob spot
to be able to swap them, and not click like we are used o do with
players. All in all, I'd leave it like it is now.
________________
|
10.09.2010 13:46:38
Edited by Aleppe
on 10.09.2010 14:24:43 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
|
Some fixed done.
Public feedback can start here in a few minutes.
________________
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| 10.09.2010 18:29:26 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
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Swaps with own summons = ok
Swaps with somebody's else summons = ok
Swaps with pushable creatures = ok
\o/
Aleppe
________________
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| 10.09.2010 18:50:41 |
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Zorxenvid
Inhabitant of Trimera
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 30
Posts: 19
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I dont' know if it should work this way...
Yesterday me and my friends were fighting another team of people on a one sqm large corridor so it was like this way
X = enemies
O = my team
xxXOooooooo
the ally that was on the side of the enemy Swapped with him so it stood this way
xxOXooooo
then swapped again
xxOoxooooooo
then again
xxOooxooooooo
so whats about it? we found a way to use swap to trap someone we did
easly killed him maybe you guys should take a look about that
kind regards
Zorxenvid
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| 10.09.2010 19:20:36 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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Originally posted by Zorxenvid on 10.09.2010 19:20:36:
> Yesterday me and my friends were fighting another
> team of people on a one sqm large corridor so it was
> like this way
> X = enemies
> O = my team
>
> xxXOooooooo
>
> the ally that was on the side of the enemy Swapped
> with him so it stood this way
>
> xxOXooooo
>
> then swapped again
>
> xxOoxooooooo
>
> then again
> xxOooxooooooo
>
> so whats about it? we found a way to use swap to trap
> someone we did easly killed him maybe you guys should
> take a look about that
>
> kind regards
> Zorxenvid
The only way he was trapped where he could not swap his way out would be
if he had attacked those surrounding him first (he was the aggressor).
Sounds like in this case that is what happened, he was on the "front
line" so he was aggressive, and you figured out how to use the swap
feature to your benefit.
We have been saying over and over that pvp is now going to require some strategy. Good job!
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| 10.09.2010 19:42:49 |
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Eddie Sariban
Inhabitant of Elysia
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 192
Posts: 534
|
I
personally think the feature is really awesome, should surely be
released on the upcoming update, if you're unjustifiedly atacked, you
got higher chances to suceed and escaping, not to mention the pvp
blessing makes it alot cheaper to die, making it impossible to hunt -out
of the server or abuse a huge number of people, which is basically
great.
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| 10.09.2010 20:43:51 |
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Seymour Dria
Inhabitant of Aurea
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 100
Mage of the Gity
Posts: 22
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I dont liked it.
it over with traps in tibia, traps dont exists anymore if u are a knight u will be imortal now
________________
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| 11.09.2010 00:36:11 |
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Rhordii
Inhabitant of Inferna
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 114
One of the Enlightenment (Ponna)
Posts: 226
|
Well,
if this thing gets implented on Inferna the war will be destroyed, we
wont have a single chance to kill Almighty Danne/some other higher lvls.
Alot of people told me they will quit if this gets implented on Inferna
so i don't think this is a good idea at all.
Watched some cams on normal pvp servers and might be interesting for them there but i don't know if they would like it.
Please keep Pvpe away from this !
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11.09.2010 02:01:12
Edited by Rhordii
on 11.09.2010 02:01:39 |
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Lucius Araxin
Inhabitant of Nova
Profession: Sorcerer
Level: 22
Posts: 33
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@Eddie Sariban
I see why they destroying pvp now. Theres is little Eddie Sariban who is
a little lame who's entering traps and cant escape. Then he died, as we
can see in character info 3 times. Then he cries, cries and cries and
making proposal thread. He's crying because he had been traped and died
because his own fault. Man if you enter trap, you cant escape it because
you are lame.
People from my server said that most of them will quit if this pvp update will be real.
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| 11.09.2010 02:07:29 |
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Tediun
Inhabitant of Rubera
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 232
Mufasa of the Relentless
Posts: 588
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Is
there anyway to remove the swapping spots feature, but add a new
feature where if items are underneath a person you can still push, this
would eliminate the "Anti Push" from botters, and still make people
trappable with firebomb runes or and field runes...... PVP = TRAPPING
REMOVE TRAPPING = REMOVE PVP = YOUR GAME IS DEAD.
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| 11.09.2010 02:30:06 |
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This thing of swap position is just horrible omg.
Trap is one of the oldest PvP taticts and it get destroyed by an update its discusting.
I hope it wont be implementated. Since im old school guy and i wont see PvP ruined again.
________________
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11.09.2010 04:13:59
Edited by Feny Garyoris
on 11.09.2010 04:15:59 |
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Inemesis
Inhabitant of Silvera
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 111
Whisky of the Manguasseiros
Posts: 742
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I didnt like the idea AT ALL.
Swapping if you get trapped? possibly the worst idea ever.
Trap has always been some of the best aspects of pvp, now youre gonna take that away too?
________________
| Theres more than we deny and there's more than meet's the eye. |
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| 11.09.2010 04:17:27 |
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Simply Horrible! This thing of swap positions its just like lol? NO WAY TO THAT GET IMPLEMENTED
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| 11.09.2010 04:36:08 |
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Figue
Inhabitant of Antica
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 152
Leader of the Nuevos Corsarios (Jefe)
Posts: 489
|
Im agree with swapping, some worlds have a lot of PA, this can help to stop some PA. Its good idea.
War system really need change, war guilds without swapping and cant leave the guild war, only when finish.
Its my opinion. This will help to stop some powerabuser. Thx.
________________
"No cometais errores, hay cosas ahi fuera que golpean de noche. Nosotros somos los que devolvemos el golpe"
¡¡Que nadie sobreviva!! Hail NC!! |
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| 11.09.2010 04:42:00 |
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I
NEVER saw something so useless and that will destroy the pvp like this
swap, people can leave from traps so easy, how we will kill them now?
using chars without yellows, skulls and mages / paladins atacking?
If you Cipsoft dont wanna destroy the pvp just change it now!
________________
-
Loyal to my friends until the end.
- |
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| 11.09.2010 06:18:30 |
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Xero Kaos
Inhabitant of Neptera
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 167
Leader of the Revolucion
Posts: 62
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Now
in tibia you need like 10 people to kill a knight high level (not only
knights), being pk or not, the only way to kill him was to trap him and
kill him with time, because combo will not do it and now what? knights
will be invincible? if you dont trap them it is way impossible to get
them running
very very bad
________________
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| 11.09.2010 06:42:03 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
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I've
always been between the ones in Focus Group fighting against the swap
feature: then I came to TS, and I realized that this is mostly an
aggressive feature.
I suggest you all to check it better before to judge it: it's not true
that there aren't ways to trap characters, you've simply not found them
yet (there are at least 3).
I've written several times that this feature requires pvp skills: time to show your ones, if you have.
Aleppe
[edit]
Now in tibia you need like 10 people to kill a knight high level
False. I can trap that HL knight with 4 ppls not giving him a way to swap.
Learn how swaps work before to judge them.
________________
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11.09.2010 08:36:47
Edited by Aleppe
on 11.09.2010 08:40:17 |
|
|
|
PVP Skills
Originally posted by Aak Nicros Pretak on 11.09.2010 06:18:30:
> I NEVER saw something so useless and that will
> destroy the pvp like this swap, people can leave from
> traps so easy, how we will kill them now? using chars
> without yellows, skulls and mages / paladins
> atacking?
> If you Cipsoft dont wanna destroy the pvp just change
> it now!
This wont destroy PVP... this will add more excitement to traps. Also as Aleppe said, will require ur pvp skills. Its a great idea.
________________
In Memory Of Angelopoluz.
Tutor since September 17th 2010.
Loyalty at all cost. |
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| 11.09.2010 10:39:23 |
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Página 7:
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Huzco
Inhabitant of Askara
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 93
Citizen of the Brazilian Inc
Posts: 452
|
Originally posted by Aleppe on 11.09.2010 08:36:47:
> I've always been between the ones in Focus Group
> fighting against the swap feature: then I came to TS,
> and I realized that this is mostly an aggressive
> feature.
>
> I suggest you all to check it better before to judge
> it: it's not true that there aren't ways to trap
> characters, you've simply not found them yet (there
> are at least 3).
> I've written several times that this feature requires
> pvp skills: time to show your ones, if you have.
>
>
> Aleppe
>
> [edit]
>
> Now in tibia you need like 10 people to kill a
> knight high level
>
> False. I can trap that HL knight with 4 ppls not
> giving him a way to swap.
> Learn how swaps work before to judge them.
ye you can do it, but if the knight has a guild or some friends they can get into ur " awesome trap " and kill ur 4
|
11.09.2010 10:45:39
Edited by Huzco
on 11.09.2010 10:46:03 |
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Rhordii
Inhabitant of Inferna
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 114
One of the Enlightenment (Ponna)
Posts: 226
|
Originally posted by Aleppe on 11.09.2010 08:36:47:
> I've always been between the ones in Focus Group
> fighting against the swap feature: then I came to TS,
> and I realized that this is mostly an aggressive
> feature.
>
> I suggest you all to check it better before to judge
> it: it's not true that there aren't ways to trap
> characters, you've simply not found them yet (there
> are at least 3).
> I've written several times that this feature requires
> pvp skills: time to show your ones, if you have.
>
>
> Aleppe
>
> [edit]
>
> Now in tibia you need like 10 people to kill a
> knight high level
>
> False. I can trap that HL knight with 4 ppls not
> giving him a way to swap.
> Learn how swaps work before to judge them.
Aleppe, i think he meant he wanted to kill the knight instant in a combo
not stand and waste it. Please cipsoft i beg you to not implent this,
im sitting here right now feeling soooo worried. You shouldn't do it
please, it's bad for your community. You see alot of people posting
"this will stop pa", well, if you guys was in war and so you would
understand. Many people that post that this may be intersting dosen't
even war too so yea..I love some other futhers tho like pvp blessings
etc! , but this is not good at ALL.
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| 11.09.2010 11:48:50 |
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Ordfin Pall
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 126
Posts: 260
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@ Huzco:
ye you can do it, but if the knight has a guild or some friends they can get into ur " awesome trap " and kill ur 4
I'm not here to convince anybody, but just to tell you which is my simple player personal opinion.
This said: yup, friends could help that knight, but that happens even
nowadays. The difference is that there would be even mutual Virtual
Orange Skulls (~15 mins), Orange skulls, Assisted skulls and, hopefully,
even points to earn the right to call to war your enemy (war system)
without his agreement.
All this without considering the Twist of fate, eventual FFRs
reductions, the possibility to reach your target even if he's hiding
behind noobchars without wasting unjusts, the possibility to aim without
stairhopping delay and the renewed stacks options.
As you can see, to say that the pvp environment resulting from the 1st
patch will be poor compared to the actual ones, is to talk nonsense: it
will require high pvp skills, and those can't be coded in an illegal
script
@ Rhordii:
Aleppe, i think he meant he wanted to kill the knight instant in a combo not stand and waste it
Nothing prevents him to do so, considering that swaps have 5 seconds
delay. Or better, something prevents it, given that now just the 1st 8
stacked chars on top of a stack will be able to deal pvp damage, being
them all aimable and able to deal pvm damage.
Let me say that if it is what he meant, I think he should read back this
whole board, considering that to take an assisted kill while trying to
combo a target would be a bit dumb, more if that target could be able to
frag each comboer for free being them revenge skulled
Many people that post that this may be intersting dosen't even war too so yea
It has been said a lot of times already: the natural environment for
wars will be the war system. I've not written 'IS', because all we know
that the actual war system is flawed like Hell in all serverskinds.
BUT things will change: there are a lot of suggested improvements for
the war system, starting from the right to call to war your enemy
without his agreement, through guild alliances, kings' rewards, nobody
leaves nobody if.. , exp from frags in hardcore, friendly fire for
Optional pvp...
Just wait the 2nd PVP patch and you'll see that we'll have back our beloved wars (yes, I'm a warmonger, a FAIR one).
________________
|
11.09.2010 12:43:13
Edited by Ordfin Pall
on 11.09.2010 12:46:03 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
|
- Swapping into a stack does work only not if the top creature is not a player character.
Atm I could swap into a stack with my own summons and creatures on top of it.
- Originally posted by Borr Henceforth on 27.08.2010 20:27:19: A hole does not count towards a trap.
Craban: Actually, I don't agree that it should. It is a way out, just as
any free field is. You may also not want to walk into the direction of
the free field, yet you can. If PKs manage to drive you to somewhere
where your only exit leads to somewhere you do not want to go, then they
did well, they really still need the chance to get people, and if you
do not want to take this route out, that is your choice. The important
thing is that you still have a choice, that is the main thing this
feature is supposed to bring.
Well, standing downstairs a ladder and a rope spot, I can activate
swaps, while being upstairs not. Same where I can levitate up.
- 13:44 You see a trapdoor. Mind to change the name? Quite funny to see a trapdoor not allowing trap-swaps
Aleppe
Open/Close pitfalls are ok.
Thx to : Aerowix
________________
|
11.09.2010 14:07:15
Edited by Aleppe
on 11.09.2010 14:32:53 |
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Mathenus
Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 123
Posts: 375
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I
play pvp for 6 years... since wars were funny and tibia a nice game for
pvp... this is the bottom I've seen... you can't trap anymore... you
are doing this like if Trapping is something easy: It's not.
Trapping is part of the game, you must have skills, you must be fast,
must know exactly where to go and forsee your enemies moviments, mwalls
must be shooted on the right sqms, it's not something easy to do, if you
did it well, you deserve your reward..
for the other side, being trapped only happens if you did a mistake, you
got 8 different directions where you can run, your enemies must be very
fast to block them all or you failed hard eliminating them by
yourself... you can "dance" around them avoiding their trap and it makes
the fun of the scape...
THIS is PvP, it's about having skills, being fast, being smart, you just ruined it
________________
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| 11.09.2010 14:40:07 |
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Apitov
Inhabitant of Antica
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 271
Posts: 1861
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Another crap update.
"cheers"
________________
| Threats don't work on me... I've already been to hell |
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| 11.09.2010 15:08:48 |
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This is crazy, I was traped by atleast 20 to 25 ppl and I made it out with this place switching.
I dont like it at all as far as pvp its done on tibia
R.I.P PVP =/
(btw been playing for 9 years and if this update comes out this is my last)
________________
Strength and Honor
For Glory |
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| 11.09.2010 15:28:03 |
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Barthory
Inhabitant of Julera
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 243
Deus of the Holy Union
Posts: 1906
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I definately didn't like it.
________________
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| 11.09.2010 15:29:23 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
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There are at least 3 ways to trap players even with swaps. Let's see how long it will take you to discover them.
Aleppe
________________
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| 11.09.2010 15:33:16 |
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i dont like this function, but its still possible to trap, a lot harder though.
The characters who are trapping shouldnt attack the victim, and have some shooters behind to kill
________________
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| 11.09.2010 16:38:55 |
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Majikanu
Inhabitant of Trimera
Profession: Sorcerer
Level: 11
Posts: 7
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Haha, gz fail at war system, it sucks so hard...
Tibia became a fail these days. Oh, Cipsoft u guys are the worst game directors ive ever met.
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| 11.09.2010 16:47:12 |
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Tutosky
Inhabitant of Libera
Profession: Knight
Level: 63
Posts: 15
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U GUYS KILLED THE OPEN BATTLES AND NOW THE TRAPS!!
tibia is going down
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| 11.09.2010 16:56:54 |
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|
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Originally posted by Aleppe on 11.09.2010 15:33:16:
> There are at least 3 ways to trap players even with
> swaps. Let's see how long it will take you to
> discover them.
>
>
> Aleppe
Anyways lol, nowadays to kill a level 300 EK u need at about 25 mages
attacking and like 8 knights circling him with exori grans if the target
has sio. I was on a level 270 ek skulled i just got unbeaten, nor by my
pvp or something like that just because i could walk through everybody
that was attacking me like pple do on Optional PvP. It will just screw
the pvp more.
I pray that it dont get activated.
________________
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| 11.09.2010 17:07:00 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
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I'll
reply just to those posts which will contain at least 3 ways to trap
players even with swaps: it is senseless to keep arguing without the
required knowledge.
And no, one of the ways it's not
"The characters who are trapping shouldnt attack the victim, and have some shooters behind to kill"
given that the one who can't swap is who deals damage to the other character, and not viceversa.
I'll repeat it once more: I was one between those who fought against
swaps in Focus Group discussion until I've not checked them in TS. After
hours and hours of tests, I've realized that it's mostly an aggressive feature. Guess why?
Aleppe
________________
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| 11.09.2010 17:24:50 |
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|
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You
dont need to be that smart to realize what you've said. But to do that u
need to be in an open area. Now imagine a level 300 trapped inside
venore. He will never die, imagine a masslog that when u log u cant
attack the guy because he will can run anytime .. so he'll just logout.
Its a lot controverse. And i still dont agree with that =s.
________________
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| 11.09.2010 17:31:15 |
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Alecto Misc
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17
Posts: 2198
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Originally posted by Rhordii on 11.09.2010 11:48:50:
> Please
> cipsoft i beg you to not implent this, im sitting
> here right now feeling soooo worried. You shouldn't
> do it please, it's bad for your community. You see
> alot of people posting "this will stop pa", well, if
> you guys was in war and so you would understand. Many
> people that post that this may be intersting dosen't
> even war too so yea..I love some other futhers tho
> like pvp blessings etc! , but this is not good at
> ALL.
GOTCHA!!!!!
Get it through your head, if you try to fight a war using the skull system you won't like it, USE THE WAR MODE!!!!!
you just invalidated your complaint! The skull system is NOT for
fighting wars, and if these restrictions mean you won't be able to fight
your war using the skull system, THEN THEY HAVE SUCCEEDED!
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| 11.09.2010 18:47:43 |
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Terre Inferno
Inhabitant of Isara
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 194
Total Insano of the Wildek Kongs (Disco Inferno)
Posts: 48
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Don't
like it one bit, can get out of almost anything especially if i
actually had my own team healing me as well, its terrible. Don't bring
it in please.
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| 11.09.2010 20:15:38 |
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Alyandy Infarra
Inhabitant of Morgana
Profession: Druid
Level: 16
Posts: 56
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Mind
telling us at least one of your trapping-scenarios, aleppe? I'd like to
check how bulletproof they are and if it can be used in every single
situation. Spontaniously thinking, I can find several methods but they
all need special circumstances to take effect.
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| 11.09.2010 20:47:02 |
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Morindal
Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 179
Vice Leader of the Victum Omnis
Posts: 323
|
Originally posted by Aleppe on 11.09.2010 15:33:16:
> There are at least 3 ways to trap players even with
> swaps. Let's see how long it will take you to
> discover them.
>
>
> Aleppe
We got one doing a short test on defence with 3 friends.
But that's prolly marginal 'coz used in small passages.
We got raided by a pack of enemies that engaged us in a fight. Our
blocker didn't join the offence and as soon as the opportunity allowed
switched with one of our oppressors. Coordinated action (me moving back 1
sqm, friend pushing the enemy) lead to trapping him inside our
defensive "structure" and later death.
Do I get one point? :o
[Side note] Requirements:
• Small passage, probably any defensive place used right now would do
• Enemy attacking first
• Coordination. Wrongly made may lead to the blocker/anyone who has switched getting trapped by agressors
________________
| He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. |
|
11.09.2010 21:11:51
Edited by Morindal
on 11.09.2010 21:15:26 |
|
|
|
I've
been searching for a few days to find out when phase 2 and the actual
update will start but I can't seem to find it. Has anyone got a clue?
________________
| I'ma make you hate me, cos you ain't me. |
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| 11.09.2010 21:20:19 |
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Página 8:
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Originally posted by Krak Aurine on 11.09.2010 10:39:23:
> This wont destroy PVP... this will add more
> excitement to traps. Also as Aleppe
> said, will require ur pvp skills. Its a great idea.
Trap is part of pvp, so yes, this will destroy some part of the pvp.
@Aleppe and the rest of non pvpers: Do you all got a char to fight in a
pvp server? Or your just a non pvp guy who only fight at test servers
once each year? Stop saying that it will be good to pvp if you will not
suffer those consequences on your server.
________________
-
Loyal to my friends until the end.
- |
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| 11.09.2010 21:25:29 |
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Aerowix
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 279
Rising of the Uprising (Nuub magnet)
Posts: 969
|
I
don't know if this really is intended or not, but if you are standing
near a door that can be opened, you will have the option to swap,
however you will not get the option on quest doors.
I have not tested quest doors where level on door > characters level, but that require a little bit of help with cleaning.
If anyone is interested to test this with me, post here.
Aero~
________________
A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
Albert Einstein |
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| 11.09.2010 22:17:45 |
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Barthory
Inhabitant of Julera
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 243
Deus of the Holy Union
Posts: 1906
|
I will just point out the reasons which made me think that it's not a good feature.
1- It would destroy all kind of traps, giving small teams a big
disadvantage since they would need to live together with the new skull
system in an open place. It's like, in case they run to a trap, high
level knights who would never get killed since they'd give lots of
unjusts, would just run into traps and magic wall behind / have a friend
behind attacking him to rush into the trapper's place.
2- I didn't like when me and my team were at party attacking each other
to get out from traps, or to push skulleds out of a stack.
3- In my own opinion, this anti-trap feature would work out of PvP, it
should be used for people who get trapped by a X time at anywhere, like
depot, boats, etc.
________________
|
| 11.09.2010 22:24:23 |
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Asca Neth
Inhabitant of Morgana
Profession: Druid
Level: 19
Posts: 136
|
Originally posted by Barthory on 11.09.2010 22:24:23:
> I will just point out the reasons which made me think
> that it's not a good feature.
>
> 1- It would destroy all kind of traps, giving small
> teams a big disadvantage since they would need to
> live together with the new skull system in an open
> place. It's like, in case they run to a trap, high
> level knights who would never get killed since they'd
> give lots of unjusts, would just run into traps and
> magic wall behind / have a friend behind attacking
> him to rush into the trapper's place.
>
> 2- I didn't like when me and my team were at party
> attacking each other to get out from traps, or to
> push skulleds out of a stack.
>
> 3- In my own opinion, this anti-trap feature would
> work out of PvP, it should be used for people who get
> trapped by a X time at anywhere, like depot, boats,
> etc.
1- How do you mean that? Breaking defenses with a high knight in front
pushing all the way in? Yes, that's a minor flaw and a fix for that is
in progression. Eventually you could just attack and let your 1st person
switch back with that knight before his 5 second delay is over.
2- Getting out from traps now needs alot of rethinking compared to
before. So far I see it as a good point, even more since this favors
knights and my main is a knight Pushing skulled people out of stacks is a positive point in my opinion. But it can be seen from two sides.
3- It was already thought of to implement this feature in other aspects
beside pvp. By now, I think noone can say what is yet to come. In
general I kinda like this feature combined with the pvp-blessing. You
got a higher chance to survive due to swapping, blessing costs less
=> longer pvp-actions, more pvp actions. And noobchars lose a big
amount of power
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| 11.09.2010 22:41:37 |
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Ilizo
Inhabitant of Azura
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 237
Swedish Hunter of the Head Hunters
Posts: 341
|
My thoughts about the swapping thing.
First of all I'd like to say that I'd prefer not introducing this but I
guess there's no possibility for that. So what I think could be changed
or improved is the following thing.
First of all I think that you should only be able to swap positions by
PUSHING yourself on the character you wish to swap with, this will
require "pvp" skills and it will make it alot harder and more fun and
exciting. Because right now I can't see any need of PVP skills just to
click/walk your way through all players.
So I think pushing yourself through people would be the best option.
_______________________________________________________
Secondly I think that if you're in warmode you shouldn't be allowed to
swap positions with anyone in the war (enemies & allies) Though it
should still be possible to swap with no warmode players.
_______________________________________________________
I do also think that you should only be able to swap positions if you're
getting PVP damage that is from a yellow/red/white skull/orange?. This
will prevent people from joining parties with eachother and swap their
way through a defence or what so ever.
(Yes I know it is?? / would be possible anyway but it would at least be bit harder to do so, or atleast bring more risks.
_______________________________________________________
Regards,
Ilizo
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| 12.09.2010 00:39:28 |
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Lait the Knight
Inhabitant of Fortera
Profession: Knight
Level: 30
Posts: 8
|
In
my opinion this should be location based, this way people that are
trying to protect friends by trapping entrances with noob chars cannot
be swaped, simple, if the path which the person is going to be swaped
does not leads to a protection zone then it shouldn't be swapable.
Also, is there a way to just don't introduce this feature?
________________
|
12.09.2010 05:56:18
Edited by Lait the Knight
on 12.09.2010 06:00:36 |
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Mathenus
Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 123
Posts: 375
|
Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 11.09.2010 18:47:43:
> Originally posted by Rhordii on 11.09.2010
> 11:48:50:
> > Please
> > cipsoft i beg you to not implent this, im sitting
> > here right now feeling soooo worried. You
> shouldn't
> > do it please, it's bad for your community. You see
> > alot of people posting "this will stop pa", well,
> if
> > you guys was in war and so you would
> understand. Many
> > people that post that this may be intersting
> dosen't
> > even war too so yea..I love some other futhers tho
> > like pvp blessings etc! , but this is not good
> at
> > ALL.
>
> GOTCHA!!!!!
>
> Get it through your head, if you try to fight a war
> using the skull system you won't like it, USE THE
> WAR MODE!!!!!
>
> you just invalidated your complaint! The skull
> system is NOT for fighting wars, and if these
> restrictions mean you won't be able to fight your war
> using the skull system, THEN THEY HAVE SUCCEEDED!
There isn't only WAR, people fight because they got attacked.. imagine a
guild that is not powerful to countrol the server, a weak guild we
could say... but a guy from the ruling guild PA this guy, like a 200 EK
going to PA a 80 RP.. something very common... the weak is guild is weak
to countrol the server, but together they could solve their problem
with the PA'r... they rush and kill it for defend themselves!
They trap the EK, kill it and proves for the rulling guild that they are not a punchbag, they CAN do something...
the new system just won't give a chance for low lvls killing high lvls
________________
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| 12.09.2010 07:19:46 |
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Mathenus
Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 123
Posts: 375
|
One more negative point:
the defense.
there was a thread about it but it was closed...
the defence is useless, easy to break... we can say that it's not possible to make defenses anymore, that means:
when we have a fight and people are losing the war, the only way they
have to still get active is making fast attacks and then making a
defense, without it the weak ppl won't feel "safe" to try doing
anything, so they will stop getting active, fights won't happen, they
won't renew their pacc and the war gets inactive, the winner gets bored
and gets inactives as well,
TADÃ: you'll have a dead server
________________
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| 12.09.2010 07:25:40 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
|
@ Morindal:
Small passage, probably any defensive place used right now would do
Enemy attacking first
Coordination. Wrongly made may lead to the blocker/anyone who has switched getting trapped by agressors
More or less... Yes, that's the 1st way: if your enemy deals pvp damage
to other chars he won't be able to swap with those chars.
So: 1° in a PVP trap one has to decide either to fight or to swap. If a PKer is trapped and you're not a pvp-noob, he will die
=> 2 ways left to be found
@ Aak Nicros Pretak:
I'm avaible on Antica, Askara, Danubia, Elisya, Inferna, Nova, Phytera and Premia on 3 digits chars.
@ Mathenus:
the new system just won't give a chance for low lvls killing high lvls
I think that you've not got the point yet: people will fight like hell
after the patch due to twist of fate, revenge skull and ffrs. My major
concerns are about the 20 unjusts, because I'm afraid we'll have too
many skulled people all around with the actual rule.
we can say that it's not possible to make defenses anymore
Nope: the only thing we can say is that YOU haven't found how to do it yet.
Aleppe
[edit]
Yet, although there are pvp-masters writing everywhere about
everything, I've not seen anybody talking about 2 of the 3 ways to trap
players even with swaps. Are you going to say me that you want to keep
the secret or what?
________________
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12.09.2010 08:11:36
Edited by Aleppe
on 12.09.2010 08:23:56 |
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Kelei Leenvi
Inhabitant of Lunara
Profession: Knight
Level: 120
Posts: 11
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Please
do not go through with this swapping idea, it will yet destroy another
part of the game which is traping. You do not have to change EVERYTHING.
Or to the correct you are changing the wrong things, traping is not the problem, the many unjusts are.
|
12.09.2010 09:32:18
Edited by Kelei Leenvi
on 12.09.2010 09:33:18 |
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Ninja Of Chaos
Inhabitant of Amera
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 222
Posts: 210
|
My
main complaint about swapping right now is actually the color of the
swap indicator box. At first glance I had it confused with the attack
indicator (red) leading me to believe I was attacking the skulled player
trapping me. Please change the color, I suggest blue
________________
| Selling Documents of the Follower, Officer, and Leader. Buying Vampire Lord Tokens. |
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| 12.09.2010 09:32:54 |
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|
|
Swapping breaks Defenses.
Me and my buddy were on test server he's a 200 rp. Well we killed a
level 200 + mage and i'm on my lvl 100 char and we escaped and set up a
defense, with just us 2.(him blocking) about 1 min later 4 level 200s +
came, trapped themselves next to the defense blocker, swapped themselves
in and dropped me quick.
Defenses are primarily used by underdog teams.. such as me and my buddy
vs the 4 people. Defenses are used to give losing teams a fighting
chance. Swapping encourages that the winning team in war or pvp
situations can break any defense with superior numbers. For the most
part swapping is good if u weren't able to completely destroy defenses
with it. I don't think it was cip's intention to kick the losing
guild/group while they are already down. But this needs to be rethinked
as how it affects defenses.
If not, once a team starts losing war, sneaks are out of the question
since you cannot stack or use defenses anymore. Which would lead to mass
inactivity from both sides of the war.
The pvp blessings and swapping are nice to encourage people to keep
fighting. But the defense is important to get your team offline when you
realize you can't fight anymore against a larger enemy team. No matter
how many things are added to encourage pvp, if you lose every battle
because u can't end it with a defense, it destroys a part of the game.
Partly the strategy of planning and using defenses effectively. It gives
victory to the team with superior numbers and levels, not the team that
deserves to win. The team that works for it, with strategy.
I realize this post focuses a lot on defenses, though it relates a lot
to this discussion as it's only the swapping feature with the defense
blocker that ends them. |
12.09.2010 12:35:22
Edited by Sovereign Entity
on 12.09.2010 12:38:26 |
|
Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
|
Swapping breaks Defenses.
Me and my buddy were on test server he's a 200 rp. Well we killed a
level 200 + mage and i'm on my lvl 100 char and we escaped and set up a
defense, with just us 2.(him blocking) about 1 min later 4 level 200s +
came, trapped themselves next to the defense blocker, swapped themselves
in and dropped me quick.
\o/ PVP skills are starting to work. 
don't think it was cip's intention to kick the losing guild/group
while they are already down. But this needs to be rethinked as how it
affects defenses.
Nothing to review out of ladders/stairs sqms which need to be considered for swaps purposes (atm they are not).
Now that you've noticed that swaps are mostly an aggressive
feature, there is one think left: to understand how to organize a valid
def even with swaps (there are at least 5 different ways).
Aleppe
________________
|
12.09.2010 12:43:36
Edited by Aleppe
on 12.09.2010 12:45:44 |
|
|
|
there's
ways to get around most features cip implements.. libera has been
avoiding 20 unjusts per kill for a very long time and i'm sure the
players on our server would find a way to mess up swapping aswell. The
point is, if he have to find a way to make swapping not work at all to
form defenses, doesn't that say something? maybe that swapping shouldn't
break defenses in the first place...
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| 12.09.2010 12:50:09 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
|
The
point is, if he have to find a way to make swapping not work at all to
form defenses, doesn't that say something? maybe that swapping shouldn't
break defenses in the first place...
Naaa, here the point are just pvp skills, nothing else. There are many
players asking to bring the old Tibia atmosphere back: well, this is one
step forward.
Do you want to keep somebody trapped? You'll need enough pvp skills to do so.
Do you want to set-up a valid def? Same.
And pvp skills can't be coded in illegal scripts.
Aleppe
________________
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| 12.09.2010 12:59:39 |
|
|
|
Well
i'm sure you know a lot about pvp skills from the optional pvp server
your on, but i'd like to give my opinion. a group of 5-10 in a defense
vs. 50 people mass swapping in isn't pvp skill. I agree making trapping
harder is cool. But defenses are valid now.. with swapping they can be
broken with massive numbers from the opposition only, not pvp skill. Its
not hard to fill in squares infront of their defense and start
clicking.
To create defenses with enough blockers to make the enemies swapping
requires a larger team. The whole point of using defenses is because
your team is too small to continue fighting in an open area or city.
Defenses are used by the losing team because they lack numbers, making
them require more people to block swapping in the defense is hurting the
losing team.
|
12.09.2010 13:11:04
Edited by Sovereign Entity
on 12.09.2010 13:13:52 |
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Ordfin Pall
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 126
Posts: 260
|
Well i'm sure you know a lot about pvp skills from the optional pvp server your on,
Do you want me to brag? Ok
Open/Hardcore PVP servers in which I've fairly created and still owning at least one 3 digits char:
Antica: MS, EK
Askara: MS, RP
Elysia: ED, EK
Furora: MS (now Danubia )
Inferna: MS
Nova MS, EK
Premia: ED
Phytera: MS, RP
PVP guilds founded/joined through years: 49 (1st: Antica Alliance = One
of the guilds in Alliance, to make it clear to that pvp-master wannabe
in discussion board)
PVP guilds:
Still active: 6
Leaded: 1
In war: 3
PVP stats:
~ 2501 unjustified kills (all my pvp chars 100+ - considering just lv 50+ victims since 2002)
~ 179 deaths due to pvp fights
Optional PVP servers in which I've fairly created and still owning at
least one 3 digits char after 2006 - this account- given that I couldn't
FAIRLY deal with warbotters:
Candia: MS
Nerana: ED, RP, MS
Never been banned for macro use, nor in pvp account neither in n-pvp
one, not due to luck but because I hate cheaters of any kinds hence
there is just 1 way to play for me: fairly.
3 banishments for too many unjusts (old skull system)
Joined Test Serves:
Public 4
Private 6
3 x Golden bugs
with swapping they can be broken with massive numbers from the
opposition only, not pvp skill. Its not hard to fill in squares infront
of their defense and start clicking.
Told you: there are 5 ways even with swaps.
You keep talking about noobish def behaviours which havent' nothing to share with pvp skills.
The whole point of using defenses is because your team is too small to continue fighting in an open area or city
Nope, the point is that cowards are used to hide behind tons of
unmarked/noobchars while being marked before to log-off. That's the
point.
Defenses are used by the losing team because they lack numbers,
making them require more people to block swapping in the defense is
hurting the losing team.
Tell them to start to attack their killers right after their pvp deaths
and they will turn the whole enemy side into a red-skulled one in few
mins just wasting few thousands gps for pvp blessings and few exp/skills
due to ffr.
Aleppe
________________
|
12.09.2010 13:35:40
Edited by Ordfin Pall
on 12.09.2010 13:37:10 |
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Cathbad
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 103
Posts: 132
|
@
Those wanting to fight with me in one of my servers: I'm avaible for
24-48 hours after every patch/update which changes the Tibia version.
Aleppe
________________
Ancients may be gone, but their magic is not.
Time ago I dreamed magic for the moon, and she still dances for me now
as she did then. Cathbad is my name, and I'm still dreaming. |
|
12.09.2010 13:40:19
Edited by Cathbad
on 12.09.2010 13:42:21 |
|
Lavalla
Inhabitant of Kyra
Profession: Druid
Level: 15
Posts: 9
|
When you first wrote this:
Originally posted by Aleppe on 12.09.2010 08:11:36:
> Phytera
I thought it was a misspell. But..
Originally posted by Ordfin Pall on 12.09.2010 13:35:40:
> Phytera: MS, RP
(and also in this post, I guess you copied it in this case, though)
You seem to be unaware of how a server on which you have 2 x 100+ character is called.
<facepalm>
How the hell you think anyone would actually believe you, LoL.
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| 12.09.2010 14:03:33 |
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|
|
@aleppe
thank you for the facts my friend. Not all defenses are blocked with
noob chars, but i'm sure u knew that. You see it as cowardly, i see it
as strategic, our opinions differ but i respect ur opinion. As for
attacking after dieing and getting their whole team red/black skull i'd
love to do that. Unfortunately libera is run by a few guilds with some
hundred members it would be hard/near impossible to get them all
red/black. Even then most people do not like the idea of sacrificing
their char's that much to bring down the enemy.
Edit:
Also the leading guild controls a substantial amount of the servers
wealth, u can only fight aslong as u have money. Dieing and coming back
only works for so long.
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12.09.2010 14:06:45
Edited by Sovereign Entity
on 12.09.2010 14:13:17 |
|
Página 9:
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Lucius Araxin
Inhabitant of Nova
Profession: Sorcerer
Level: 22
Posts: 33
|
@Aleppe
Get a life, it's just a game. Your real life must be very sad if you
live only tibia. So many chars, stats I see tibia is your life and
that's why you posting this annoying ideas.
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| 12.09.2010 14:12:37 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
|
@ Lavalla:
You seem to be unaware of how a server on which you have 2 x 100+ character is called.
You'd have known why I call that server Phytera if you were a
true old account player, not meaning those ones calling MPAs like
E-plates just because they've read about it somewhere. And now, get
lost.
@ Sovereign Entity:
There are ways to protect yoursel that you've not discovered yet: you'll understand my wods when you'll have noticed them
@ Lucius Araxin:
My RL ain't your business.
Aleppe
________________
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| 12.09.2010 14:19:50 |
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Lucius Araxin
Inhabitant of Nova
Profession: Sorcerer
Level: 22
Posts: 33
|
Of course . Tibia is all your life and that's why you should quit this game as soon as possible.
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| 12.09.2010 14:34:02 |
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Lavalla
Inhabitant of Kyra
Profession: Druid
Level: 15
Posts: 9
|
Originally posted by Aleppe on 12.09.2010 14:19:50:
> @ Lavalla:
>
> You seem to be unaware of how a server on which
> you have 2 x 100+ character is called.
>
> You'd have known why I call that server
> Phytera if you were a true old account player,
> not meaning those ones calling MPAs like E-plates
> just because they've read about it somewhere. And
> now, get lost.
I've been playing since 2004 so before pythera was created. I don't find
it "true old account" though, heheh. I've never heard of pythera having
any phytera name. So I guess you're once again making things up
@swapping thing, not bad but gives too big advantage to knights with a sioer against even big teams.
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| 12.09.2010 14:35:39 |
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Jiga'Avenger
Inhabitant of Empera
Profession: Sorcerer
Level: 37
Posts: 3
|
LOL
somebody needed an ego boost. Good way to prove your a pvp legend, post
on 2 more chars from a non-pvp world then challenge everyone. I don't
think anybody bought it hahaha
Originally posted by Cathbad on 12.09.2010 13:40:19:
> @ Those wanting to fight with me in one of my
> servers: I'm avaible for 24-48 hours after every
> patch/update which changes the Tibia version.
>
>
> Aleppe
|
| 12.09.2010 14:36:55 |
|
Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
|
Originally posted by Lavalla on 12.09.2010 14:35:39:
> I've never heard of pythera having any phytera
> name. So I guess you're once again making things
> up
Are you blaming me for your own ignorance?
> @swapping thing, not bad but gives too big advantage
> to knights with a sioer against even big teams.
Knights will be right the ones who will suffer more by swaps: go figure what you've understood about this feature.
@ Jiga~:
Time to grow up there.
Aleppe
________________
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| 12.09.2010 14:42:15 |
|
Lavalla
Inhabitant of Kyra
Profession: Druid
Level: 15
Posts: 9
|
Originally posted by Aleppe on 12.09.2010 14:42:15:
> Originally posted by Lavalla on 12.09.2010
> 14:35:39:
> > I've never heard of pythera having any phytera
> > name. So I guess you're once again making things
> > up
>
> Are you blaming me for your own ignorance?
Nah, I'm blaming you for lying
> > @swapping thing, not bad but gives too big
> advantage
> > to knights with a sioer against even big teams.
>
> Knights will be right the ones who will suffer more
> by swaps: go figure what you've understood about this
> feature.
I clearly wrote with a sioer. Learn to read.
Tip: Druids can use m walls/wild growth.
|
12.09.2010 14:45:52
Edited by Lavalla
on 12.09.2010 14:46:16 |
|
Jiga'Avenger
Inhabitant of Empera
Profession: Sorcerer
Level: 37
Posts: 3
|
@ Aleppe
Time to shift the discussion away from what i said there LOL
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| 12.09.2010 14:46:32 |
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Mathenus
Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 123
Posts: 375
|
Ok,
Aleppe, you are the only one who liked against all the others post who
disliked, you are the one that actually IS playing non-pvp and all the
others are not. You can stop playing the smart one who understood
everything now, it's geting annoying...
clear thing is: 90% of us didn't like it, but Cip stoped answering on the thread... what Cip does have to say about it?
usually they don't, don't even listen to their players and do everything we said we didn't want...
________________
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| 12.09.2010 15:00:26 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
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@ Lavalla:
Just post with your main and you'll discover the truth
I clearly wrote with a sioer. Learn to read.
Tip: Druids can use m walls/wild growth.
Knights were meant to be blockers: swaps will turn them into unblockers.
@ Matheus:
If you weren't ignorant like you've just showed, and if you had read
what I've written in this same thread, you would have discovered that in
Focus Group I was between those who mostly fought against swaps.
The point is that, once I've started to test them, I've realized that
swaps require high pvp skills, right what best part of you all ( 90% you
say) doesn't clearly have looking at what you write, given that you've
not found yet the 3 ways to keep somebody trapped and the 5 ways to
resist to swaps defending somebody.
Clear thing is that the 90% of pvp players are noobs. That's the clear thing here.
Not? Which are those 3+5 ways? Tell me.
Noobs.
Aleppe
[edit]
@ All: if you're a griefer or an aggressive player and you think to come
here bragging like you're used to do, be advised that you won't pass
through me. I'll carve your soul until you won't be gone.
Otherwise, if you want to talk about features and about your remarks or
suggestions in a polite way, you'll be more than welcome.
________________
|
12.09.2010 15:13:57
Edited by Aleppe
on 12.09.2010 15:25:15 |
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Aglerer
Inhabitant of Premia
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 223
Bemused of the Awareness
Posts: 1338
|
I don't like it too.
________________
| Hope for the best, prepare for the worst |
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| 12.09.2010 15:30:58 |
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Lavalla
Inhabitant of Kyra
Profession: Druid
Level: 15
Posts: 9
|
Originally posted by Aleppe on 12.09.2010 15:13:57:
> @ Lavalla:
>
> Just post with your main and you'll discover the
> truth
Lmao at you telling others to post on main characters xD Do it yourself if you are as good as you claim to be.
> The point is that, once I've started to test them,
> I've realized that swaps require high pvp skills,
> right what best part of you all ( 90% you say)
> doesn't clearly have looking at what you write, given
> that you've not found yet the 3 ways to keep somebody
> trapped and the 5 ways to resist to swaps defending
> somebody.
>
> Clear thing is that the 90% of pvp players are noobs.
> That's the clear thing here.
> Not? Which are those 3+5 ways? Tell me.
3 ways to keep somebody trapped? Unless we are talking about a situation
where it's a low-mlvl knight being trapped or that he was the first to
attack, I frankly don't see a way to disable the person from swapping.
How are you going to do that do 300 lvl, 10 mlvl EK? Leave him empty
squares? if he is not a noob, he will take a use of them. Put some other
stuff like flowers or w/e? He can smash them, if he is not a noob.
Stop attacking while he throws m walls? Oh come on, he is not alone on
the server either, friends are on the way, there is no time to play like
that. There are few places where swapping might be indeed a problem for
such a character but a no-noob player could still make his way out.
On TS currently it's nearly impossible to test it, 99% of trapped
players are skulled so obviously they can't switch with everyone. Don't
call us noobs then, cause we didn't have a chance to test the swapping
in peace, like you had.
> Otherwise, if you want to talk about features and
> about your remarks or suggestions in a polite way,
> you'll be more than welcome.
Listen to yourself, you don't like talking in a polite way, your thread
on Balera board showed that you enjoy hunting people for saying
"signed".
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| 12.09.2010 16:15:14 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
|
Don't call us noobs then, cause we didn't have a chance to test the swapping in peace, like you had.
That's the form of reasoning I like.
So, look:
- If a player deals pvp damage to somebody else, he won't be able to swap with that character (FOUND)
- Hint: something open
- Hint: who's on top?
- Hint: Let's give a party!
These are 4 ways (I had written at least 3), and there is even another one, but I'll keep it for me.
Try to find those 4: dOne it, we'll talk about how to defend your team by swaps.
Aleppe
________________
|
12.09.2010 16:31:59
Edited by Aleppe
on 12.09.2010 16:32:46 |
|
|
|
All who is complaining is because they died by me xD they have no skill at all so they complain
such people ruin the game they can only whine whine whine
play tetris if you can't accept some challenge
the new system is great!!!!! thumb up!
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| 12.09.2010 16:34:36 |
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Morindal
Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 179
Vice Leader of the Victum Omnis
Posts: 323
|
Originally posted by Aleppe on 12.09.2010 16:31:59:
> So, look:
> 1. If a player deals pvp damage to somebody else, he won't be able to swap with that character (FOUND)
> 2. Hint: something open
> 3. Hint: who's on top?
> 4. Hint: Let's give a party!
> These are 4 ways (I had written at least 3), and there is even another one, but I'll keep it for me.
2. Hint: something open
Not sure if we're talking of the same thing but worth a try...
At first I considered it as a bug, you might think of it as an
opportunity - open house doors that the person getting trapped isn't
invited to.
3. Hint: who's on top?
Doesn't have to be on top. Works even if just beside.
Npcs work best, you can't switch if one is blocking you. Also possible with monsters that cant be "pushed".
[Edit] After a short thought, I'd consider both options a bug. Houses
bug can be eliminated (can it?) but NPCs can't be "repaired" - you'd
have the possibility to move some out of their range of walking which
would probably be abused even more
________________
| He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. |
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12.09.2010 16:56:17
Edited by Morindal
on 12.09.2010 17:25:24 |
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Akitanul
Inhabitant of Morgana
Profession: Paladin
Level: 60
Posts: 70
|
Originally posted by Aleppe on 12.09.2010 16:31:59:
> Don't call us noobs then, cause we didn't have a
> chance to test the swapping in peace, like you
> had.
>
> That's the form of reasoning I like.
>
> So, look:
- If a player deals pvp damage to
> somebody else, he won't be able to swap with that
> character (FOUND)
Works in small passages with a few people and requires a good
organization (vent?). The more people involved the less chance to
overview it and less practicable. Totally useless to trap someone on an
open field. NEXT
> Try to find those 4: dOne it, we'll talk about how to
> defend your team by swaps.
I sadly think I'll bash every single argument of yours but show me differently please
> Aleppe
King of Aleppe
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12.09.2010 16:58:41
Edited by Akitanul
on 12.09.2010 16:59:41 |
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Morindal
Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 179
Vice Leader of the Victum Omnis
Posts: 323
|
Check my post over you
________________
| He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. |
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| 12.09.2010 17:07:11 |
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Akitanul
Inhabitant of Morgana
Profession: Paladin
Level: 60
Posts: 70
|
Originally posted by Morindal on 12.09.2010 17:07:11:
> Check my post over you
I guess it either has something to do with opened houses (which should
be a bug imo because if you cannot enter a house, you are also trapped)
or with holes/ladders. Open a hole and trap upstairs as well as
downstairs so that he can switch between 2 levels but still receive
damage all the time. Again this would work in special situations, if you
are able to force someone to go to a hole OR he voluntarely goes there.
Anyone clear in his mind would avoid such situations and try to swap
his way into an open field/to pz. It can be useful in certain hunting
grounds (venore drag lair comes to my mind) but it's again connected to
requirements and not a general way. In open field, same as above
USELESS.
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| 12.09.2010 17:12:26 |
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Morindal
Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 179
Vice Leader of the Victum Omnis
Posts: 323
|
Well. Noone ever said those things could be used IN ANY SITUATION.
Ppl said it's impossible to trap anyone now. Aleppe's giving you hints
that it is. Under some conditions, yes, but still possible.
I don't know what you think but wouldn't the swapping option be useless
if you still had an ultraturboreally easy way for trapping? That's what
the feature is for - to prevent getting trapped and making it hard for
aggressor.
________________
| He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. |
|
12.09.2010 17:21:28
Edited by Morindal
on 12.09.2010 17:22:38 |
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Akitanul
Inhabitant of Morgana
Profession: Paladin
Level: 60
Posts: 70
|
I
understand that, I'm fine with people not being able to be trapped
anymore - that's not the point. I am just annoyed by someone claiming to
know the ultimate pvp-trap-skills even after swapping will be
introduced when they are practicably useless because people will adapt
and work their way arround them soon enough. For me it looks like the
complaints that knights gave after the potion update when they still
went to pvp or hunt with Ultimate Healing Runes. They were right but
they were simply not up to date.
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| 12.09.2010 17:31:54 |
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Página 10:
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
|
@ Morindal:
2. Hint: something open
Not sure if we're talking of the same thing but worth a try...
At first I considered it as a bug, you might think of it as an
opportunity - open house doors that the person getting trapped isn't
invited to.
You're close, but not like a door would be
3. Hint: who's on top?
Doesn't have to be on top. Works even if just beside.
Npcs work best, you can't switch if one is blocking you. Also possible with monsters that cant be "pushed".
2 (3) left
@ Akitamul:
If a player deals pvp damage to
> somebody else, he won't be able to swap with that
> character (FOUND)
Works in small passages with a few people and requires a good
organization (vent?). The more people involved the less chance to
overview it and less practicable. Totally useless to trap someone on an
open field.
Narrow passages can be even a problem for paladins lower than lv 32 and knights below mlv 9.
The only HL chars which can be trapped even nowadays in an open field
are the ones controlled by pvp noobs, and you appear to be skilled just
with them. Enough said.
I sadly think I'll bash every single argument of yours but show me differently please
Before find them, then we'll talk.
A note: to be a true king you need to have people following and listening to you, not beating on you.
I guess it either has something to do with opened houses
No.
Again: if you'll try to keep your actual pvp behaviour even in the pvp
environment resulting from the 1st pvp patch, you'll be owned by skilled
players. Badly.
Aleppe
________________
|
12.09.2010 17:33:58
Edited by Aleppe
on 12.09.2010 17:36:42 |
|
Akitanul
Inhabitant of Morgana
Profession: Paladin
Level: 60
Posts: 70
|
Originally posted by Aleppe on 12.09.2010 17:33:58:
> @ Morindal:
> 3. Hint: who's on top?
>
> Doesn't have to be on top. Works even if just
> beside.
> Npcs work best, you can't switch if one is blocking
> you. Also possible with monsters that cant be
> "pushed".
Are all summonable creatures push-able/swap-able? If yes, it minimizes
the effectivenes of this strategy by far. NPCs are mostly in cities
which means there are multiple ways to pz. If you swap/get swapped to an
npc you are fail. Trapping a botter in huntplaces works, but botters
shouldn't be considered a standard (even if the truth is different).
> 2 (3) left
Keep it going
> @ Akitamul:
>
> If a player deals pvp damage to
> > somebody else, he won't be able to swap with that
> > character (FOUND)
>
> Works in small passages with a few people and
> requires a good organization (vent?). The more people
> involved the less chance to overview it and less
> practicable. Totally useless to trap someone on an
> open field.
>
> Narrow passages can be even a problem for paladins
> lower than lv 32 and knights below mlv 9.
> The only HL chars which can be trapped even nowadays
> in an open field are the ones controlled by pvp
> noobs, and you appear to be skilled just with them.
> Enough said.
Yes, since you can just leave a sqm free so they're unable to swap. Then
again, how many knights pk alone without a friend that can at least
shoot a mwall. Same for paladins under lvl 32. As low as they are, they
die soon enough anyway.
At the moment it's hard, not impossible to trap any high level on an
open field. Plan your group and set a druid-line on a place the
highlevel has a high probability to run through and chain-paralyze and
mwall him. The person isn't a pvp noob because of it, he simply can't do
anything about it.
> I sadly think I'll bash every single argument of
> yours but show me differently please
>
> Before find them, then we'll talk.
Going by your logic I can find 3 missing ones easily.
-The players mouse stops working so he cannot swap anymore
-The player has a disconnect and cannot react anymore
-The player is a pvp-noob and doesn't understand what the boxes arround chars next to him mean.
> A note: to be a true king you need to have people
> following and listening to you, not beating on you.
A true king isn't selected, he is born. I am your king, deal with it.
> I guess it either has something to do with opened
> houses
>
> No.
Very smart to quote only the first part of my post. Did the rest hit the bulls-eye?
> Again: if you'll try to keep your actual pvp
> behaviour even in the pvp environment resulting from
> the 1st pvp patch, you'll be owned by skileld
> players. Badly.
Just like today, just nowadays the skill is in bringing more noobchars
to a battlefield. I'm sure the coming changes will change that.
> Aleppe
King of Aleppe
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| 12.09.2010 17:48:37 |
|
Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
|
Are all summonable creatures push-able/swap-able? If yes, it minimizes the effectivenes of this strategy by far
Yes they are. Are you able to tell me which was the reason of this choice?
Then again, how many knights pk alone without a friend that can at least shoot a mwall.
I'm not talking just about PKers but even about solo hunters: paladins
up to lv 32 and knights with mlv up to 9 can be trapped quite easily.
That's why I've posted in Focus Group a solution to fix this problem.
Btw, how would you solve it? Let's see.
> Before find them, then we'll talk.
Are you able to find them or not?
A true king isn't selected, he is born. I am your king, deal with it.
I'm dealing with a child-behaving player: that's all or can I wait for something better?
Very smart to quote only the first part of my post. Did the rest hit the bulls-eye?
That was enough to let you know to which paragraph I was referring.
Since you aren't able to understand it alone: no holes and ladders
aren't involved in point 2. traps. Retry (ask somebody to help you: you
don't appear to be skilled enough)
Aleppe
________________
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| 12.09.2010 18:02:27 |
|
Akitanul
Inhabitant of Morgana
Profession: Paladin
Level: 60
Posts: 70
|
Originally posted by Aleppe on 12.09.2010 18:02:27:
> Are all summonable creatures push-able/swap-able?
> If yes, it minimizes the effectivenes of this
> strategy by far
>
> Yes they are. Are you able to tell me which was the
> reason of this choice?
Which choice do you mean? Can you be more clear in your questions? Even
though it makes it easier to cover up your mistakes later if you don't
write alot, do it in this case please.
> Then again, how many knights pk alone without a
> friend that can at least shoot a mwall.
>
> I'm not talking just about PKers but even about solo
> hunters: paladins up to lv 32 and knights with mlv up
> to 9 can be trapped quite easily. That's why I've
> posted in Focus Group a solution to fix this
> problem.
> Btw, how would you solve it? Let's see.
I wouldn't solve it. If for example 2 pks are able to chase someone into
a 1 sqm passage (or the player already was there) and they place boxes
behind themselves, leaving the target 2 sqms to run between them then
that person either is able to hold out until friends come or he will
die. That's the risk of pvp-servers.
> > Before find them, then we'll talk.
>
> Are you able to find them or not?
You didn't present even 1 valid point so far, how can I find things that
you make our of air? t's like telling you that I'm thinking of 2
numbers between 1 and 10000, now guess my numbers.
> A true king isn't selected, he is born. I am your
> king, deal with it.
>
> I'm dealing with a child-behaving player: that's all
> or can I wait for something better?
Right back at you.
> Very smart to quote only the first part of my
> post. Did the rest hit the bulls-eye?
>
> That was enough to let you know to which paragraph I
> was referring. Since you aren't able to understand it
> alone: no holes and ladders aren't involved in point
> 2. traps. Retry (ask somebody to help you: you don't
> appear to be skilled enough)
There is no need to cut off that paragraph in such an ambigous meaning
then. It seems everyone in Tibia except you isn't skilled enough because
noone found that awesome strategies yet and you managed to find even 3!
> Aleppe
King of Aleppe
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| 12.09.2010 18:14:41 |
|
Morindal
Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 179
Vice Leader of the Victum Omnis
Posts: 323
|
Originally posted by Akitanul on 12.09.2010 17:48:37:
> -The players mouse stops working so he cannot swap
> anymore
Fail! You can still use keyboard to swap!
Originally posted by Akitanul on 12.09.2010 18:14:41:
> There is no need to cut off that paragraph in such an
> ambigous meaning then. It seems everyone in Tibia
> except you isn't skilled enough because noone found
> that awesome strategies yet and you managed to find
> even 3!
I feel pretty extraordinary for finding at least 2 then.
________________
| He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. |
|
12.09.2010 18:22:07
Edited by Morindal
on 12.09.2010 18:23:57 |
|
|
|
Originally posted by Aleppe on 12.09.2010 16:31:59:
> Don't call us noobs then, cause we didn't have a
> chance to test the swapping in peace, like you
> had.
>
> That's the form of reasoning I like.
>
> So, look:
- If a player deals pvp damage to
> somebody else, he won't be able to swap with that
> character (FOUND)
- Hint: something open
- Hint:
> who's on top?
- Hint: Let's give a
> party!
These are 4 ways (I had written at
> least 3), and there is even another one, but I'll
> keep it for me.
>
> Try to find those 4: dOne it, we'll talk about how to
> defend your team by swaps.
>
>
> Aleppe
1. Blocking with magic walls/wild growth still possible
2. Something open: you cant swap with open spaces to move to. So
depending on how cipsoft solves the pushing problem with items below you
it gives you time to get enough people to bring enough magic walls to
block nicely.
3. Timing: If you stop attacking after one swap the swapped char ist
still trapped (and you can easily swap him back whereever you want him
to be if you have an organised team) Those being trapped have then the
only chance to self attack themselves with a fire field to be able to
swap again as far as I know.
4. Like written, non pushable creatures and NPCs (dont understand why
they were not added to the "pushable" creatures) help greatly to block
someone
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| 12.09.2010 18:23:36 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
|
@ Maru the bear king:
1. Blocking with magic walls/wild growth still possibl
Yes, it is, but that was too obvious. The 1st way to trap somebody is to
make him deal pvp damage to you: he won't be able to swap. You can even
step on his fields with more chars.
2. Something open: you cant swap with open spaces to move to. So
depending on how cipsoft solves the pushing problem with items below you
it gives you time to get enough people to bring enough magic walls to
block nicely.
Nope man, but nice try
3. Timing: If you stop attacking after one swap the swapped char ist
still trapped (and you can easily swap him back whereever you want him
to be if you have an organised team) Those being trapped have then the
only chance to self attack themselves with a fire field to be able to
swap again as far as I know.
Well, this has something to do with the 5th way, although it's a bit
more complicated. Morindal spoiled the 3rd already: NPCS and not
pushable creatures (out of summonable ones) can't be swapped. Same goes
to stacks with them on top.
4. Like written, non pushable creatures and NPCs (dont understand why
they were not added to the "pushable" creatures) help greatly to block
someone
You're close: FFRs may help you
Aleppe
________________
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| 12.09.2010 18:41:53 |
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|
|
2.
Something open: you cant swap with open spaces to move to. So depending
on how cipsoft solves the pushing problem with items below you it gives
you time to get enough people to bring enough magic walls to block
nicely.
Nope man, but nice try
More like he got half of it right, your on the right track
________________
As the old saying goes... "Fifty NO's and one YES means YES!"
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| 12.09.2010 19:20:18 |
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Krun Levind
Inhabitant of Eternia
Profession: Sorcerer
Level: 129
Posts: 282
|
This is possibly the worst thing I have ever seen.
Couldn't you just stop trying to make pvp servers more like non pvp?
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12.09.2010 19:38:36
Edited by Krun Levind
on 12.09.2010 19:39:03 |
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|
|
Hi
Originally posted by Akitanul on 12.09.2010 18:14:41:
> I wouldn't solve it. If for example 2 pks are able to
> chase someone into a 1 sqm passage (or the player
> already was there) and they place boxes behind
> themselves, leaving the target 2 sqms to run between
> them then that person either is able to hold out
> until friends come or he will die. That's the risk of
> pvp-servers.
>
go to one pk, magic wall behind you and then you can swap.
________________
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| 12.09.2010 20:13:57 |
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Akitanul
Inhabitant of Morgana
Profession: Paladin
Level: 60
Posts: 70
|
Originally posted by Magus Firefly on 12.09.2010 20:13:57:
> Hi
>
> Originally posted by Akitanul on 12.09.2010
> 18:14:41:
>
> > I wouldn't solve it. If for example 2 pks are able
> to
> > chase someone into a 1 sqm passage (or the player
> > already was there) and they place boxes behind
> > themselves, leaving the target 2 sqms to run
> between
> > them then that person either is able to hold out
> > until friends come or he will die. That's the risk
> of
> > pvp-servers.
> >
>
> go to one pk, magic wall behind you and then you can
> swap.
We were talking about lower pallies and knights without mlvl 9. If you are able to shoot a mwall, you can survive there, yes.
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| 12.09.2010 20:20:59 |
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Alyandy Infarra
Inhabitant of Morgana
Profession: Druid
Level: 16
Posts: 56
|
Originally posted by Morindal on 12.09.2010 18:22:07:
> Originally posted by Akitanul on 12.09.2010
> 17:48:37:
> > -The players mouse stops working so he cannot swap
> > anymore
>
> Fail! You can still use keyboard to swap!
Didn't know that, don't have a character to try out the feature on the
test server atm. I thought you have to click on someone in order to swap
with him. Let me repair that point:
-The player's mouse AND keyboard stop working so he cannot swap anymore
> Originally posted by Akitanul on 12.09.2010
> 18:14:41:
> > There is no need to cut off that paragraph in such
> an
> > ambigous meaning then. It seems everyone in Tibia
> > except you isn't skilled enough because noone
> found
> > that awesome strategies yet and you managed to
> find
> > even 3!
>
> I feel pretty extraordinary for finding at least 2
> then.
You found 2 of his 5 which really is extraordinary for me. You should use that luck to play in the lottery
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| 12.09.2010 20:24:25 |
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Morindal
Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 179
Vice Leader of the Victum Omnis
Posts: 323
|
Ain't mere luck. Skillz, skillz.
And I hope you know this and previous (half of the) post were intended to be a joke.
[Back to the topic] If I found out 2 or even 3 ways to trap a person
within this short time I was online on test server all those nolifers
should've found out billions of techniques already.
________________
| He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. |
|
| 12.09.2010 20:47:50 |
|
Akitanul
Inhabitant of Morgana
Profession: Paladin
Level: 60
Posts: 70
|
Originally posted by Morindal on 12.09.2010 20:47:50:
> Ain't mere luck. Skillz, skillz.
>
> And I hope you know this and previous (half of the)
> post were intended to be a joke.
>
> [Back to the topic] If I found out 2 or even 3 ways
> to trap a person within this short time I was online
> on test server all those nolifers should've found out
> billions of techniques already.
Sure thing, dude
And there is no general method to trap someone anymore. There is few
cases with certain requirements in which you can do it but if you're
playing it smart you won't have to fear to get trapped anymore
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| 12.09.2010 21:19:54 |
|
Zippir Velet
Inhabitant of Selena
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 191
Posts: 325
|
I
thought the last update was the last one but you took an another step
to ruin pvp system,what can i say? Keep going,even tho we complain you
never change your mind so its pointless to argue with you and your
supporters such as Aleppe,who defends everything those made by Cipsoft
though they're useless,bad or good doesn't matter for him he defend you
all the way..
________________
In memory of Tupac 'n Eazy €
Nobody is good.Sometimes,even good people may turn into a monster,all
you need to do is blazing the evil within their minds.We're humans,we've
weaknesses! |
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| 12.09.2010 22:09:41 |
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Morindal
Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 179
Vice Leader of the Victum Omnis
Posts: 323
|
And tell me, how long have you been testing it?
Or maybe you just read about the feature and are complaining now? :)
________________
| He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. |
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| 12.09.2010 22:46:14 |
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|
|
I'm wondering why non pvp guys are here to discuss...
________________
| You're no damn good for me. |
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| 12.09.2010 23:27:07 |
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Mathenus
Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 123
Posts: 375
|
@Aleppe:
yes I've read the whole thread before written anything, you can't call
others ppl as ignorant if YOU don't know what you are talking about and
is ignorant about it... my last post was very clear
we don't care for you and we do not want to listen you braging about
yourself, that you discovered something, that you was on a small
selectiv group or whatever... you just sounds like an annoying pedant,
stop talking about YOU and YOUR discovers, forget the word "I"... it'll
be better for you and for us
________________
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| 12.09.2010 23:59:05 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
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@ Mathenus:
I'm insisting because the common sense says that one can't judge
something without having previously understood it, and you haven't.
Despite you don't have enough game knowledge / experience or simple time
to test swaps possibilities, you keep judging swaps not knowing how
they really work and their potential. Just an ignorant ( = the one who
ignores something ) would act so.
@ All those who want to know how swaps really work:
Just message me after SS, and I'll show you what you need to know about swaps.
Aleppe
________________
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| 13.09.2010 07:32:08 |
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Azriel
Inhabitant of Shivera
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 109
Posts: 2328
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I'd say it's high time for a short summary of this topic, so people can know what has been discussed/rejected already
Yours,
Azzy
________________
Proud Tutor since 27/05/07 to 27/05/10 and since 13/08/10 to ...
17:31 Exorz [206]: why gonna help him xd
17:31 Azriel [83]: Cuz I'm Azriel, haha |
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| 13.09.2010 09:04:03 |
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Página 11:
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Animus Tuk
Inhabitant of Aurea
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 122
Mage of the Gity
Posts: 603
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I
think it shouldn't be possible to swap with group of people for example
with people on stack - I mean it shouldnt be possible to walk on stairs
by swaping with peaople who are blocking stairs.
________________
Once I enjoyed to play this game but now i just feel that its waste of time.
10:50 Nergael [138]: widze ze juz naprawde jestes gitem
10:50 Nergael [138]: nara |
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| 13.09.2010 09:11:22 |
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I've got a question, Will swaping be possible in war mode?
________________
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| 13.09.2010 11:01:52 |
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Craban
Product Manager
Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4
Posts: 4103
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A lot of discussion about this feature. I am very happy to see that discussion being lead in majority very constructively.
The feedback does show that to really be able to assess this, it does take time to test it.
The vast majority seems to like the main feature, namely that there is now an option for someone who is trapped.
Most of the criticism concerns the effects of this on the so called
"defense". Now, we have discussed a lot about this. Yes, there will
never be a way to which everyone will agree, so yes, for some, this will
be something they will not like.
Currently, it seems that how it is now (except for the bug with the
house doors), it is a very promising feature. So I do not plan to change
the basic functionality of it. We will of course fix all bugs that
might still be found.
________________
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| 13.09.2010 13:05:41 |
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Lucius Araxin
Inhabitant of Nova
Profession: Sorcerer
Level: 22
Posts: 33
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I'm quiting tibia.
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| 13.09.2010 13:37:23 |
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Leree
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Paladin
Level: 215
Protector of the Atrevidos
Posts: 157
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That's great but please add protection zones in blessing places and potions shops - these places are full of player killers.
Edit/@Craban
I am first and only one on server house owner. If I leave open door this
means few players may enter to my house without invitation?
________________
|
13.09.2010 14:12:13
Edited by Leree
on 13.09.2010 14:14:20 |
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Kulek'Skun
Inhabitant of Elysia
Profession: Sorcerer
Level: 26
Posts: 3
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Swapping position is the worst idea ever.
Cip you just destroyed this gime.
Give us old pvp!
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| 13.09.2010 14:22:48 |
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I am first and only one on server house owner. If I leave open door this
means few players may enter to my house without invitation?
~Leree
It was initially a bug, but now it should be fixed and no matter what
people do they cannot enter your house even if the door is open. What
Craban is currently referring to is the square next to your door not
giving you to accessing swapping cause its currently counted as an open
square when it isnt.
Ofc if you want to be super safe you can always close your door every time you leave your house and maybe lock the door
________________
As the old saying goes... "Fifty NO's and one YES means YES!"
|
|
| 13.09.2010 14:24:10 |
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Mathenus
Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 123
Posts: 375
|
Originally posted by Craban on 13.09.2010 13:05:41:
> A lot of discussion about this feature. I am very
> happy to see that discussion being lead in majority
> very constructively.
>
> The feedback does show that to really be able to
> assess this, it does take time to test it.
>
> The vast majority seems to like the main feature,
> namely that there is now an option for someone who is
> trapped.
>
> Most of the criticism concerns the effects of this on
> the so called "defense". Now, we have discussed a lot
> about this. Yes, there will never be a way to which
> everyone will agree, so yes, for some, this will be
> something they will not like.
>
> Currently, it seems that how it is now (except for
> the bug with the house doors), it is a very promising
> feature. So I do not plan to change the basic
> functionality of it. We will of course fix all bugs
> that might still be found.
what do you mean with the majority like? lol?
Make a pool with all the things that are being tested and if they liked it or not...
________________
|
| 13.09.2010 16:01:41 |
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|
|
I just have one question, not sure where to ask it.
How does this affect non-PVP?
Some friends and I were hunting at the Draken's, and another group
showed up and trapped us and lured the Draken Abominations, Draken
Elites,and Draken Spellweavers. The sorc made it to the quest door but
the other team/guild had someone standing in the door and the sorc could
not get past him. And before you say anything this happened on a non
pvp world. Something needs to be done about the luring and trapping done
on non pvp worlds, or they will be owned by guilds that lure and kill
other ppl for the fun of it. Most high lvl ppl on my main world are
leaving or quiting for this reason. I am seriously thinking of not
renewing premi on 4 accounts because of this. I have played for 5 years
all but 3 weeks as a premi player. It would be nice if something could
be done about the non pvp worlds, on the luring during quest services
(POI,INQ,and Wrath of the Emperor)or luring in general. Sorry for the
rant, but getting tired of the abuses going on on the non pvp worlds.
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| 13.09.2010 16:32:47 |
|
Evil'Cloude
Inhabitant of Morgana
Profession: Paladin
Level: 20
Posts: 27
|
Originally posted by Mathenus on 13.09.2010 16:01:41:
> Originally posted by Craban on 13.09.2010
> 13:05:41:
> > A lot of discussion about this feature. I am very
> > happy to see that discussion being lead in
> majority
> > very constructively.
> >
> > The feedback does show that to really be able to
> > assess this, it does take time to test it.
> >
> > The vast majority seems to like the main feature,
> > namely that there is now an option for someone who
> is
> > trapped.
> >
> > Most of the criticism concerns the effects of this
> on
> > the so called "defense". Now, we have discussed a
> lot
> > about this. Yes, there will never be a way to
> which
> > everyone will agree, so yes, for some, this will
> be
> > something they will not like.
> >
> > Currently, it seems that how it is now (except for
> > the bug with the house doors), it is a very
> promising
> > feature. So I do not plan to change the basic
> > functionality of it. We will of course fix all
> bugs
> > that might still be found.
>
>
> what do you mean with the majority like? lol?
>
> Make a pool with all the things that are being tested
> and if they liked it or not...
Vast majority of people who don't like the changes are those who like to
outnumber, PA people or have an advantage when it comes to the use of
noobchars. Guess against who this update is meant to help?
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| 13.09.2010 16:38:15 |
|
Mathenus
Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 123
Posts: 375
|
Originally posted by Evil'Cloude on 13.09.2010 16:38:15:
> Originally posted by Mathenus on 13.09.2010
> 16:01:41:
> > Originally posted by Craban on 13.09.2010
> > 13:05:41:
> > > A lot of discussion about this feature. I am
> very
> > > happy to see that discussion being lead in
> > majority
> > > very constructively.
> > >
> > > The feedback does show that to really be able to
> > > assess this, it does take time to test it.
> > >
> > > The vast majority seems to like the main
> feature,
> > > namely that there is now an option for someone
> who
> > is
> > > trapped.
> > >
> > > Most of the criticism concerns the effects of
> this
> > on
> > > the so called "defense". Now, we have discussed
> a
> > lot
> > > about this. Yes, there will never be a way to
> > which
> > > everyone will agree, so yes, for some, this will
> > be
> > > something they will not like.
> > >
> > > Currently, it seems that how it is now (except
> for
> > > the bug with the house doors), it is a very
> > promising
> > > feature. So I do not plan to change the basic
> > > functionality of it. We will of course fix all
> > bugs
> > > that might still be found.
> >
> >
> > what do you mean with the majority like? lol?
> >
> > Make a pool with all the things that are being
> tested
> > and if they liked it or not...
>
> Vast majority of people who don't like the changes
> are those who like to outnumber, PA people or have an
> advantage when it comes to the use of noobchars.
> Guess against who this update is meant to help?
I've been on the rulling guild of my old server and left it by myself
and made my weak Brasilian guild on a German Server and fought against
the PA'rs for years making my little guild grown... fighting in defence,
to earn our respect, I'm not opressor, I'm the freedom fighter, and
guess what?
I don't like the update
________________
|
| 13.09.2010 17:34:55 |
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Krun Levind
Inhabitant of Eternia
Profession: Sorcerer
Level: 129
Posts: 282
|
Funny how at first they only invited non pvpers and peaceful GMs to test it! =D
Pretty funny when you think the best way to test new pvp features is to invite people who have never been part of a war.
Why not just stop the immense decline in pvp and make all servers non pvp now?
|
13.09.2010 18:13:32
Edited by Krun Levind
on 13.09.2010 18:16:42 |
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Evil'Cloude
Inhabitant of Morgana
Profession: Paladin
Level: 20
Posts: 27
|
Originally posted by Mathenus on 13.09.2010 17:34:55:
> Originally posted by Evil'Cloude on 13.09.2010
> 16:38:15:
> > Originally posted by Mathenus on 13.09.2010
> > 16:01:41:
> > > Originally posted by Craban on 13.09.2010
> > > 13:05:41:
> > > > A lot of discussion about this feature. I am
> > very
> > > > happy to see that discussion being lead in
> > > majority
> > > > very constructively.
> > > >
> > > > The feedback does show that to really be able
> to
> > > > assess this, it does take time to test it.
> > > >
> > > > The vast majority seems to like the main
> > feature,
> > > > namely that there is now an option for someone
> > who
> > > is
> > > > trapped.
> > > >
> > > > Most of the criticism concerns the effects of
> > this
> > > on
> > > > the so called "defense". Now, we have
> discussed
> > a
> > > lot
> > > > about this. Yes, there will never be a way to
> > > which
> > > > everyone will agree, so yes, for some, this
> will
> > > be
> > > > something they will not like.
> > > >
> > > > Currently, it seems that how it is now (except
> > for
> > > > the bug with the house doors), it is a very
> > > promising
> > > > feature. So I do not plan to change the basic
> > > > functionality of it. We will of course fix all
> > > bugs
> > > > that might still be found.
> > >
> > >
> > > what do you mean with the majority like? lol?
> > >
> > > Make a pool with all the things that are being
> > tested
> > > and if they liked it or not...
> >
> > Vast majority of people who don't like the changes
> > are those who like to outnumber, PA people or have
> an
> > advantage when it comes to the use of noobchars.
> > Guess against who this update is meant to help?
>
>
> I've been on the rulling guild of my old server and
> left it by myself and made my weak Brasilian guild on
> a German Server and fought against the PA'rs for
> years making my little guild grown... fighting in
> defence, to earn our respect, I'm not opressor, I'm
> the freedom fighter, and guess what?
> I don't like the update
I didn't say it's only the opressors, just that most people are. If you
are heavily outnumbered and have to go defense after every action, I see
that the changes can have a bad influence on you. I'm not sure yet
whether or not CIPsoft will adapt some things for defenses but even if
not, I still think the benefits outweight the loss of power of defenses.
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| 13.09.2010 18:14:47 |
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Magon Ridis
Inhabitant of Isara
Profession: Druid
Level: 25
Posts: 1
|
Originally posted by Kulek'Skun on 13.09.2010 14:22:48:
> Swapping position is the worst idea ever.
> Cip you just destroyed this gime.
> Give us old pvp!
Support 100%
I hate when players from noob-pvp servers (aka non-pvp) says that new
changes are really good idea. Why u say that its good for you if you
never attacked any humman and u won't be able to use this on your
server? U don't play on pvp server so u shouldn't speak in this
conversation. Cipsoft, why u let non-pvp server to testing this new PVP
THINGS? Ahh i know becouse this changes don't have nothing shared with
PVP. May make new non-pvp server and give there exp for all x2 then
nobody will play on pvp servers, and your problem with small amount of
players on pvp server will be solved -.-. Cipsoft you just killing pvp
on tibia. For this pvp most of players playing, and u just kick 'em. I
won't comment pvp blessing and revange skull cause its lost my
time...But like always ppl from non-pvp will support it, from pvp will
disagree but you lead this wrong changes to tibia :X.
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| 13.09.2010 18:47:55 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
|
It hurts? Good
Aleppe
________________
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| 13.09.2010 19:25:00 |
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Tranger
Inhabitant of Astera
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 124
Oracle of the Serendipity
Posts: 168
|
does is aventually help the trapped player?
you can swip once every 5 sec? so if someone swips you and all people
helping trapping you hotkey the swipping proces you can not swip your
way out.
tactics or bug?
________________
| Do not be yourself... Become yourself. |
|
| 13.09.2010 21:34:33 |
|
Memphiz
Inhabitant of Valoria
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 162
One of the Renegade
Posts: 1322
|
Switching places is very bad for pvp. It's just a fact.
This does NOT encourage players to put more effort in trapping because it's simply IMPOSSIBLE to trap.
The only way to trap a person now is to have the first line (directly next to the player) NOT to attack the player.
This makes knights useless. Is this what you want to reach with this update Cipsoft?
Do you want to save some players that are stupid enough to get trapped,
or are just not good enough in pvp and outsmarted by the enemy team, and
therefore make knights useless in trapping, yet invincible when being
trapped.
This feature will break more than it heals, that's for sure.
And again, a part of pvp, a VERY important part, will be destroyed.
//Memphiz
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| 13.09.2010 21:46:12 |
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Willy The Dinosaur
Inhabitant of Shivera
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 126
Posts: 117
|
Please... PLEASE... PLEASSSEEEEE... DO NOT GO THROUGH WITH THIS IDEA, I LIKE THE REST BUT THIS ONE IT RUINS EVERYTHING.
Swapping places just ruins Tibia's PVP Features and is not a good
Idea... It should be taken out and Tibia would have improved this
update.
/Kobee?
________________
| ????????????????????????????????????????????????????? |
|
13.09.2010 22:18:43
Edited by Willy The Dinosaur
on 13.09.2010 22:21:28 |
|
|
|
i guess you shouldn't add party damage as swap damage because the teams will just enter in party, atk eachother
and go into the traps. Ofcourse they could do it with nubchars but they
noobchars can be killed easily and dont have acess to some places.
|
| 13.09.2010 22:31:06 |
|
Fatley'kent
Inhabitant of Solera
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 104
Yo of the Get Rich (Esteban)
Posts: 32
|
PVP
I
think that pvp is a very important part of the tibian experience, If
you get killed is not nice at all specially if you are random killed (No
reason).
But if you kill someone that deserves it(thiefs,hackers,pks etc.)it is
completly justified to do it or if your guild is involved in a war.
Some people kill others for fun, others for personal reasons, and others just for making justice.
Any of those are important reasons because lots of players just play tibia for killing people, thats fun for them.
The new feature of swapping position is completly ruining the pvp
experience, because trapping was one of the main tools of killing
people.
Im not a power abuser or a random pk, I just kill people who deserves it.
Getting trap has never been that easy, you need really experienced
player or a non experienced one to get real trapped (no way out).
This is why I think that this new feature is not good or necessary.
Yours.
Fatley.
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| 13.09.2010 23:10:27 |
|
Página 12:
|
|
|
I really don't like this idea.
It will be impossible to trap a war enemy who don't want to join war mode.
It will be impossible to kill 300+ MS or 200+ EK if he will be able to run out from the trap.
It will be impossible to keep enemies away from gaining cash!
2 years ago, sunday, around 55000 people online, 900 on my world.
Yesterday, 35000 people online, 250 on my world.
That says all
/Riptiman Serinthun.
________________
We learn from experience that people never learn from experience.
|
|
| 14.09.2010 00:41:59 |
|
Aranodie
Inhabitant of Harmonia
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 147
Immortal of the Almighty Force
Posts: 6
|
Originally posted by Riptiman Serinthun on 14.09.2010 00:41:59:
> I really don't like this idea.
>
> It will be impossible to trap a war enemy who don't
> want to join war mode.
> It will be impossible to kill 300+ MS or 200+ EK if
> he will be able to run out from the trap.
> It will be impossible to keep enemies away from
> gaining cash!
>
> 2 years ago, sunday, around 55000 people online, 900
> on my world.
> Yesterday, 35000 people online, 250 on my world.
>
> That says all
>
> /Riptiman Serinthun.
Totally agree.
It's going that all servers will be kind non-pvp one.
|
| 14.09.2010 01:07:45 |
|
Fatley'kent
Inhabitant of Solera
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 104
Yo of the Get Rich (Esteban)
Posts: 32
|
Originally posted by Riptiman Serinthun on 14.09.2010 00:41:59:
> I really don't like this idea.
>
> It will be impossible to trap a war enemy who don't
> want to join war mode.
> It will be impossible to kill 300+ MS or 200+ EK if
> he will be able to run out from the trap.
> It will be impossible to keep enemies away from
> gaining cash!
>
> 2 years ago, sunday, around 55000 people online, 900
> on my world.
> Yesterday, 35000 people online, 250 on my world.
>
> That says all
>
> /Riptiman Serinthun.
Toyally Signed
I think that pvp is a very important part of the tibian experience, If
you get killed is not nice at all specially if you are random killed (No
reason).
But if you kill someone that deserves it(thiefs,hackers,pks etc.)it is
completly justified to do it or if your guild is involved in a war.
Some people kill others for fun, others for personal reasons, and others just for making justice.
Any of those are important reasons because lots of players just play tibia for killing people, thats fun for them.
The new feature of swapping position is completly ruining the pvp
experience, because trapping was one of the main tools of killing
people.
Im not a power abuser or a random pk, I just kill people who deserves it.
Getting trap has never been that easy, you need really experienced
player or a non experienced one to get real trapped (no way out).
This is why I think that this new feature is not good or necessary.
Yours.
Fatley.
|
| 14.09.2010 01:40:05 |
|
Chipirindingui
Inhabitant of Solera
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 177
Inner Circle of the Castlings (Muted)
Posts: 1469
|
I think that you shouldnt be able to swap if you have pz lock ( red/black swords).
I mean, besides you being able to stair-hop without dieing,if someone
finally success to trap you, you can easily escape, that is not right,
lol.
________________
| Waiting
for life to be good to you, just because you're a good person is like
hoping that a bull don't ram you just because you're a vegeterian. |
|
| 14.09.2010 01:49:38 |
|
Odyon
Inhabitant of Solera
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 227
Kevlar of the War Factory
Posts: 1322
|
Originally posted by Fatley'kent on 14.09.2010 01:40:05:
> Originally posted by Riptiman Serinthun on
> 14.09.2010 00:41:59:
> > I really don't like this idea.
> >
> > It will be impossible to trap a war enemy who
> don't
> > want to join war mode.
> > It will be impossible to kill 300+ MS or 200+ EK
> if
> > he will be able to run out from the trap.
> > It will be impossible to keep enemies away from
> > gaining cash!
> >
> > 2 years ago, sunday, around 55000 people online,
> 900
> > on my world.
> > Yesterday, 35000 people online, 250 on my world.
> >
> > That says all
> >
> > /Riptiman Serinthun.
> Toyally Signed
> I think that pvp is a very important part of the
> tibian experience, If you get killed is not nice at
> all specially if you are random killed (No reason).
> But if you kill someone that deserves
> it(thiefs,hackers,pks etc.)it is completly justified
> to do it or if your guild is involved in a war.
> Some people kill others for fun, others for personal
> reasons, and others just for making justice.
> Any of those are important reasons because lots of
> players just play tibia for killing people, thats fun
> for them.
> The new feature of swapping position is completly
> ruining the pvp experience, because trapping was one
> of the main tools of killing people.
> Im not a power abuser or a random pk, I just kill
> people who deserves it.
> Getting trap has never been that easy, you need
> really experienced player or a non experienced one to
> get real trapped (no way out).
> This is why I think that this new feature is not good
> or necessary.
>
> Yours.
> Fatley.
Very well said. |
| 14.09.2010 01:53:01 |
|
Mathenus
Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 123
Posts: 375
|
reading the thread make things very clear for me about general opnion
WE DO NOT WANT THE SWAMPING THING
this is the vast majority
________________
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| 14.09.2010 02:33:29 |
|
Tajiro
Inhabitant of Aurea
Profession: Druid
Level: 41
Posts: 3
|
Swapping
or make it possible to kill noobchars without unjust. I've had enough
of that "pl wars" with more noobchars than mainchars
|
| 14.09.2010 03:14:21 |
|
Retribuere
Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 46
Posts: 161
|
Originally posted by Mathenus on 14.09.2010 02:33:29:
> reading the thread make things very clear for me
> about general opnion
>
>
> WE WANT THE SWAPING THING
>
> this is the vast majority
There ya go, I fixed it for you.
I like the swap feature, and I want it in the game!
|
| 14.09.2010 04:10:56 |
|
Dwerg Kidov
Inhabitant of Saphira
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 218
Enraged of the Red Mist
Posts: 250
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Question:
is swapping possible, if the characters trapping you are not attacking
you and you're receiving pvp damage from distance?
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| 14.09.2010 04:14:56 |
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Utha Litebringer
Inhabitant of Isara
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 63
Posts: 911
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Originally posted by Dwerg Kidov on 14.09.2010 04:14:56:
> Question: is swapping possible, if the characters
> trapping you are not attacking you and you're
> receiving pvp damage from distance?
yes
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| 14.09.2010 04:16:04 |
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@Craban you should not remember but we talked a lot in private messages in the forum of Tibiabr.
The only thing I'd like you to understand is simple: The world is not perfect.
Wars, abuse of power, theft, also exist in the real world, you should
not change this course. It may not seem, but is because of these
problems that many learn what is right or wrong, because they have a
chance to make a mistake and would like the old saying "We learn only
when we make mistakes."
You're trying to build a "perfect" world, where would encourage people to find good... and bad things, why not?
Let people play their wars for reasons they believe, this way people
grow up. Rest assured that the game itself teaches the right way for the
players, list it to a player who plays and respect this game from 9
years.
Regards,
Pipao
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| 14.09.2010 05:25:10 |
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Regarding
the PVP swap, I thought the delay lasts too long. As a knight, every
time I used the swap feature, I would die. However, when I stood in one
place, taking the hits, I had a better chance of survival. The thing
is, as soon as there were many players attacking me, I would eventaully
die since knights can't heal themselves efficiently. I'm not trying to
be biast, but I really think you guys should give a second thought on
how this swap works, especially for knights since the delay causes lots
of time for the attackers to do the damage. Afterall, knights can only
heal 600-700 HP per turn, if using UHP.
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| 14.09.2010 05:39:05 |
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Originally posted by Riptiman Serinthun on 14.09.2010 00:41:59:
> I really don't like this idea.
>
> It will be impossible to trap a war enemy who don't
> want to join war mode.
> It will be impossible to kill 300+ MS or 200+ EK if
> he will be able to run out from the trap.
> It will be impossible to keep enemies away from
> gaining cash!
>
> 2 years ago, sunday, around 55000 people online, 900
> on my world.
> Yesterday, 35000 people online, 250 on my world.
>
> That says all
>
> /Riptiman Serinthun.
hey, i'm telling you as an EK...the swap method is a trap for a knight.
I used it several times in test, and every time it resulted in my
death. I had better chance of survival just staying in one sqm and
taking the hits!
regarding it being impossible to kill a 300 mage or MS, I do not
know...but I think it's safe to say your right. Since mages can use 1
spell to heal their HP to full OR use an energy ring to get out of a
trap since they've got tons of mana.
what I am trying to say is, knights as always get the worst of the 4 vocations.
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| 14.09.2010 05:41:19 |
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Ok there are 12 pages of discussion... I admit I didn't read it all, but I got important points to say here.
First, I'd like to say I liked this swapping feature. Trapping and
killing is not fair, but I think a defense is needed to END a battle.
I want to ask one simple thing: why players can't be pushed on top of
parcels, or other objects? I remember this problem began with Acko, when
he started to make parcel and fire bomb traps, then people were able to
climb as many parcels as they had in front. If we get the ability to
push someone in a parcel or any other object, a single knight won't be
able to perform defense, 2 at least will be needed, that can make traps
possible, but a bit harder.
Plus, it's still possible to make a defense with a parcel behind as I
saw in Thais yesterday: we had this red skull EK, lvl 180 in a narrow
corridor where only 5 players could shoot him, so the 1st thing is that
he would never die. Then I tried to swap with him, placed a magic wall
behind him, and I was trapped in front of him with my team behind me. So
I asked one of my team members to atack me, but still I couldn't swap
with that red skull cuz i atacked him before, and everyone else did the
same... and couldn't get into his defense. another important detail, is
that next to him there was an open door of a house, and i don't know if
that had any influence.
what i'm trying to say is that people learnt how to stair hop, yalahar
is suck a safe place still, takes hours to kill someone if this guy is
on a ladder, it's not even worth it, u can see people stacking all over
the place.
people learnt how to make defenses, how to combo, how to stack and hide
players to lose pz... they learnt from the game and from the
possibilities they had... so i think with new context, people will learn
and use new tricks... and that might become even a bigger problem.
________________
| At the land, at the sea, I'll run after you. The creature must die. |
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| 14.09.2010 06:37:27 |
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Originally posted by Dark Covin on 14.09.2010 05:41:19:
> hey, i'm telling you as an EK...the swap method is a
> trap for a knight. I used it several times in test,
> and every time it resulted in my death. I had better
> chance of survival just staying in one sqm and taking
> the hits!
>
> regarding it being impossible to kill a 300 mage or
> MS, I do not know...but I think it's safe to say your
> right. Since mages can use 1 spell to heal their HP
> to full OR use an energy ring to get out of a trap
> since they've got tons of mana.
>
> what I am trying to say is, knights as always get the
> worst of the 4 vocations.
I tested the swap feature in various traps, didn't from it. I do agree
though the delays suck but they are not instant deaths like everyone is
trying to make out .
I think delays should not affect potion useage at all, the only thing
that should stop a potion should be paralyze. Moving diagonal getting a
swap delay map clicking none of these things should affect a characters
healing no matter what the vocation is.
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| 14.09.2010 06:43:17 |
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Vailess
Inhabitant of Kyra
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 107
Maraduer of the Kamikaze
Posts: 133
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Originally posted by Dark Covin on 14.09.2010 05:41:19:
> hey, i'm telling you as an EK...the swap method is a
> trap for a knight. I used it several times in test,
> and every time it resulted in my death. I had better
> chance of survival just staying in one sqm and taking
> the hits!
>
> regarding it being impossible to kill a 300 mage or
> MS, I do not know...but I think it's safe to say your
> right. Since mages can use 1 spell to heal their HP
> to full OR use an energy ring to get out of a trap
> since they've got tons of mana.
>
> what I am trying to say is, knights as always get the
> worst of the 4 vocations.
Imagine now similar same situation. You random pk'd some low lvl and
there is 20 people chasing you, because you are skulled' . They can't
kill as long as you are not trapped, because they don't got time to
count combo. They finally tapped you. But you have a friend druid, who's
healing you, so you don't have to worry about healing delay while
swaping. Your enemies can't kill you because they got no time to count
combo, because they need to focuse on magicwalling to keep you trapped
instead of counting combo. You managed to get out from trap by swaping
and situation repeats over and over as long as you are out of supplies
or your enemies give up because mages from enemy team get killed by
immortal knights/high paladins.
And about no defense option avialable. You really want to make this game
peaceful world for everyone? You really wants every open pvp world
became optional_pvp_alike? Wow, after all your game was mother of pvp,
you destroyed it while old updates and you will completly destroy all
that left... sad wars won't be possible with no defense option. Cuz
bigger teams win, any pvp skills not needed anymore sad but true
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| 14.09.2010 07:12:47 |
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Samanota
Inhabitant of Luminera
Profession: Druid
Level: 125
Deathrow of the Enigma
Posts: 1230
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If
the swap position is implemented, you've completely ruined the pvp
aspect of the game, and I applaud you for ruining the game even more.
But I don't expect you to change anything even if everyone says its bad, it's not like you ever do.
Game = 25% dead
THANKS
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| 14.09.2010 08:15:52 |
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Aleppe
Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147
Posts: 5847
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This
feature is really amazing, not only because it brought more fun to the
whole pvp environment, but because it finally revealed the lack of pvp
skills all around.
I guess what would happen if CIP would remove HKs: all knights, right?
Aleppe
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| 14.09.2010 08:41:51 |
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Ryonaka Beon
Inhabitant of Shivera
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 128
Archangel of the Breaking Away (Bebechita)
Posts: 208
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This
is just lame for open PVP worlds, cause In war we actually spend a lot
of time and takes a lot of effort to trap someone, and is not like it's
really unfair and awfull for the trap to be traped, he already has the
oportunitty not to be trap and not to be killed, and if someone really
doesnt want to be trap, killed etc etc... he can easily move to an
optional pvp world and play tibia in peace all he wanted to, or just
have the brains to not to get themselves into traps. You guys should
stop caring about Open pvp worlds, and focus on Optional pvp worlds,
where there SOO MUCH MORE POWER ABUSERS, BOTTER, BUG ABUSERS, GAME FEATURES ABUSERS,
etc. Since in those worlds you don't really have the chance to deffend
yourself, but you guys are really taking the chance for world-pvpers to
deffend ourself like we normally do, and making tibia a whole non-pvp
rpg. Remember the mayority of tibians found usefull and likable the old
PVP features and as you guys are implementing all this useless aspects,
lots of old players are leaving, and common, with no players you can't
target to make new ones... and with Cero willing to offend, it sounds a
little bit hipocryte for me, all those times you're "TESTING" anything
we players found "DISGUSTING" u guys just listen a minor group of
players and implemented it anyways 
________________
I carry your heart with me(I carry it in
my heart)I am never without it(anywhere
I go you go,my dear; and whatever is done
by only me is your doing,my darling) |
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14.09.2010 10:11:49
Edited by Ryonaka Beon
on 14.09.2010 10:13:07 |
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Azriel
Inhabitant of Shivera
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 109
Posts: 2328
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Well,
I know this post isn't constructive, but I want to understand what are
the reasons and the goals of swapping. I've never had problems with
traps made my main/war mode chars. All I want is to prevent noob
characters trapping people (specially in war mode), that's all. I do not
really get what's wrong in making traps in wars using war characters or
trapping people by PKs. It's a part of the game and IMPORTANT feature
in Open PvP servers.
I'd really appreciate if someone could explain this to me
Yours,
Azzy
________________
Proud Tutor since 27/05/07 to 27/05/10 and since 13/08/10 to ...
17:31 Exorz [206]: why gonna help him xd
17:31 Azriel [83]: Cuz I'm Azriel, haha |
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| 14.09.2010 10:39:43 |
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