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Feature: PvP-Blessing

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Craban
Product Manager

Inhabitant of Arcania
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Level: 4

Posts: 4103


What is it?

This is an additional blessing. All it does is if someone gets killed in PvP (received at least 50% PvP damage prior to the death) who has this blessing, he will not lose his regular blessings and his AOL.

It can be bought at any temple NPC and costs the same as one regular blessing. You can only buy it though if you already have at least one regular blessing.

If you die having the PvP-blessing but no regular blessings or AOL, you will not lose the PvP blessing either because it was of no use anyways.

If you have a red or black skull, this blessing will not work, but you will not lose it either.

What should be tested?

- Does it work correctly?
- Is the price ok for all level ranges?
- Are there ways to abuse this?
- Does it actually help the right people?
- Does it break anything else in the game?

Fixes Tue, 12:30 CEST:

- Ank temple NPC will sell PvP blessing.
- Add PvP blessing to ceremonial Ankh
- Allow buying the blessing also with no blessings but having an AOL in your inventory
- The 50% damage rule cannot be changed the way it was suggested, so what we will try is set it to at least 40% must be PvP damage and all damage is only counted from the last 60 seconds (moster damamge used to be counted with no time limit).

Fixes Wed, 20:00 CEST:

- Let trapped players also swap with monsters / summons. It is likely that we will only let them swap with monsters that can be pushed too which applies to all summonable monsters as far as I know.
- Summons damage will now count fully to the 40% rule, only if the summon dies before the victim, this cannot be done.

Fixes Fri 9.10. 18:00 CEST:

- AOL should now also be protected by the blessing if you do not have any other blessings.

Fixes Wed 9.15. 16:45 CEST:

- Farmine temple NPC now also has the PvP blessing

Suggested Improvements

"No Can Do"

- Count damage from summons fully as PvP doesn't work because it would break when the summons are killed before the victim, so we prefer avoiding that kind of confusion.
- Extend the 50% damage rule due to kills during hunts (proposal: add an OR rule for 30% PvP damage within 10 seconds and final blow is by a player / summon) - this also doesn't really work because the server does not really save when exactly damage was done, so the 10 seconds can actually currently not be calculated.
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27.08.2010 12:55:03
Edited by Craban
on 15.09.2010 16:44:36
Quote Post #28317424

 
Alecto Misc

Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17

Posts: 2198


Originally posted by Craban on 27.08.2010 12:55:03:
> What is it?
(received at least 50% PvP
> damage prior to the death) who has this blessing, he
> will not lose his regular b

could you explain in more detail how this is calculated so we can set up tests with monsters.

How does healing change the amount of damage, what about damage over time, etc.....
27.08.2010 16:03:28
Quote Post #28318676

 
Craban
Product Manager

Inhabitant of Arcania
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Level: 4

Posts: 4103


Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 27.08.2010 16:03:28:
> Originally posted by Craban on 27.08.2010
> 12:55:03
:
> > What is it?
> (received at least 50% PvP
> > damage prior to the death) who has this blessing,
> he
> > will not lose his regular b
>
> could you explain in more detail how this is
> calculated so we can set up tests with monsters.
>
> How does healing change the amount of damage, what
> about damage over time, etc.....

Hmm, that is actually really difficult to explain. Ok, PvP damage only counts for those characters that have dealt damage within the last 60 seconds. I am not totally sure whether for example if you have done 1000 damage 1,5 minutes ago and 1 damage 45 seconds ago when the guy dies, whether you are counted with 1001 or just 1 damage. I'll have to ask our server programmer on that on monday.

As far as I know, it all depends on the last 60 seconds before the death. The "at least 50%" is set because if you kill someone with summons (ie FEs) since those summons get half the xp, they also are attributed half of the damage, but this is still a pvp death, therefore at least 50%.
________________
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The mask I wear is one.

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A very good approach on how to play Tibia WITH others rather than AGAINST!
27.08.2010 16:28:43
Quote Post #28318870

 
Alecto Misc

Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17

Posts: 2198


Originally posted by Craban on 27.08.2010 16:28:43:

> The "at least 50%" is set
> because if you kill someone with summons (ie FEs)
> since those summons get half the xp, they also are
> attributed half of the damage, but this is still a
> pvp death, therefore at least 50%.



I just saw a huge problem then.

Mages will be able to summon say 2 zerks. Wait until a person that is hunting receives any damage at all from a monster, and they the mage can attack.

Because the damage from the mage is split with the summons, and because the summons are counted as monster damage, and because the person just took a hit from a monster, then more than 1/2 the damage will be from monsters, so the victim loses their regular blessings.

correct?
27.08.2010 17:27:48
Quote Post #28319337

 
Craban
Product Manager

Inhabitant of Arcania
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Posts: 4103


Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 27.08.2010 17:27:48:
> Originally posted by Craban on 27.08.2010
> 16:28:43
:
>
> > The "at least 50%" is set
> > because if you kill someone with summons (ie FEs)
> > since those summons get half the xp, they also are
> > attributed half of the damage, but this is still a
> > pvp death, therefore at least 50%.
>
>
>
> I just saw a huge problem then.
>
> Mages will be able to summon say 2 zerks. Wait until
> a person that is hunting receives any damage at all
> from a monster, and they the mage can attack.
>
> Because the damage from the mage is split with the
> summons, and because the summons are counted as
> monster damage, and because the person just took a
> hit from a monster, then more than 1/2 the damage
> will be from monsters, so the victim loses their
> regular blessings.
>
> correct?

That could indeed be so, could you test this for me please?
________________
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The mask I wear is one.

(Sting)
A very good approach on how to play Tibia WITH others rather than AGAINST!
27.08.2010 17:33:50
Quote Post #28319389

 
Alecto Misc

Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17

Posts: 2198


Originally posted by Craban on 27.08.2010 16:28:43:
>
> Hmm, that is actually really difficult to explain.
> Ok, PvP damage only counts for those characters that
> have dealt damage within the last 60 seconds. I am
> not totally sure whether for example if you have done
> 1000 damage 1,5 minutes ago and 1 damage 45 seconds
> ago when the guy dies, whether you are counted with
> 1001 or just 1 damage. I'll have to ask our server
> programmer on that on monday.
>

While you are asking here is a scenario to walk through to see how it would be determined pvp or monster.

"Joe" is hunting dragons. Joe has 1000 total hp.

Joe runs into a few dragons at one time, gets combod for 800hp

He heals back to full health

the dragons do 400 damage and at the same time a pk team does 600 damage.

All of this happens in less than 1 minute.
Is that a pvp death or a monster death?

lets turn it around and walk through it this way.

Joe is being pk'd. He loses 800hp to the pk'rs.
While he is trying to escape he fully heals
and then runs into the spawn of dragons.
The dragons hit him for 600 at the same time the pk team hits him for 400.

pvp death or monster death?

These are things that will be very hard to test because we can not control how much damage the monsters deal. This is where walking through the steps the server takes will be helpful.


One last scenario.
Joe is hunting dragons. He takes many combos from them and is healing while he is trying to get away from that spawn.
Over 45 seconds he is dealt 2400 damage, and he has been able to heal all of it.

Right as he gets out of that spawn with full health he runs into a pk team that does a big 1000 combo hit.

So in less than a minute Joe took 2400 damage from monsters, and 1000 from pvp.

Is that death pvp or monster?


Thanks.
27.08.2010 17:36:47
Quote Post #28319413

 
Enyx Deathweaver

Inhabitant of Berylia
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 190

Szalony of the Warjaty

Posts: 2975


Going to point somethings out.

Your theory about summons, maybe true. However if you frag someone with a summon (final blow) it says a summon of "XXX".. So most likely it will divide the damage, but all coming from the same source none the less..

Also, I'm going to assume when they say 60 seconds, it means 60 seconds of PvP fighting.. Again I could be be wrong but unless they lose PZ it will count as 1001 damage..

___

In your theory its a good question, but I'm going to assume that it is counted from the last time he had full HP..
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27.08.2010 17:56:02
Quote Post #28319568

 
Xadam
Senator

Inhabitant of Lunara
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Level: 150

Posts: 6556


I think the server calculates sum of damage over the last minute. This in deed shall raise problems in which PK team shows up during the hunt and kills the hunting character.

I think that the mechanism should distinguish death made by party members and regular white/red skulled players. In case of death being caused by party member we can assume that it happened during the hunt, so the proposed mechanism is tolerable. In case of attackers not being party members, we should assume that major damage was caused in order to kill.

To correct the faulty mechanism I suggest counting pvp death when:
1. at least 50% of damage was caused by players within last one minute prior to death (doesn't necessarily mean that final hit was done by the PK)
OR
2. at least 30% of damage was caused by players within last 10 seconds prior to death AND the last hit was taken by the PK/PKs.

Concerning the kills with summons, is it possible to count damage done by PK and his summons as one pvp damage? Player is responsible for his summons, so it should be counted as his pvp damage. I think it'd solve the problematic issue alerted by Alecto Misc.

//Xadam
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27.08.2010 18:04:41
Quote Post #28319650

 
Benja
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Level: 73

Cursed Mage of the Templars of Hope

Posts: 4017


Would someone be willing to test with me sometime?

//Benja
27.08.2010 18:41:56
Quote Post #28319941

 
Araluxie

Inhabitant of Julera
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 120

Aspartame of the Sugar (Riveting Tale Chap)

Posts: 2640


Ankrahmun NPC does not sell the PvP blessing. Does not react to "Twist of Fate" or "Blessing" or "PvP Blessing" or anything of the sort.
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27.08.2010 19:20:31
Quote Post #28320250

 
Mastro Daro
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What do you think on adding this to ceremonial ankh?




//Mastro~
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27.08.2010 19:37:25
Quote Post #28320383

 
Enyx Deathweaver

Inhabitant of Berylia
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Level: 190

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Posts: 2975


^ Agree
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27.08.2010 19:41:11
Quote Post #28320414

 
Alecto Misc

Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17

Posts: 2198


Originally posted by Craban on 27.08.2010 17:33:50:
>> so the victim loses their
> > regular blessings.
> >
> > correct?
>
> That could indeed be so, could you test this for me
> please?

Tested 3 times

#1 test
Alecto misc - NO BLESSINGS! (so testing just FFR)

took ws on the mage helping with this, immediately went to rats (naked) took a few hits came up and was attacked by 2 zerks summoned by that mage.
15:17 You see a dead human (Vol:10).
You recognize Alecto Misc. He was killed by an orc berserker.

EXP went from lvl 16 with 21% to go to level 16 with 73% to go, so lost 1/2 level.
Sword went from 37 with 14% to 36 with 14% to go, so lost a whole level. (OUCH)
Shield went from 33 with 98% to to down to 32 with 95% to go. Lost a whole level. (OUCH again)

Due to the loss of the skill level, I do not think the fair fight rules protected me.

Test #2. Used my nooby druid that has all 5 blessings AND pvp blessing.
put eq in bp, dropped down to rats and took a few hits.
Came up and was attacked by mage (sd) and zerks.

Went to temple and bought pvp blessing. (appears the sd hit made a big difference on the calculation)

Test #3 Used nooby druid again with all blessings and pvp blessing.
Took a few hits from rats, came up and was attacked only by the summons. They pretty much so 1 hit me.

ME; Hi, twisted fate, yes
15:28 Alia: You already possess this blessing.

bye bye 5 blessings.

on each test the hits from the rats accounted for MAYBE 5 to 10% of my total hp.
each time, had "escaped" from the rats with most of my healt (90-95%) and then died. Each time when I looked at the body it said killed by a zerk.

So this shows that if just the summons are used it is being counted as monster damage.
27.08.2010 21:31:30
Quote Post #28321338

 
Sir Elleandor

Inhabitant of Calmera
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 49

Ascending of the Avater Force

Posts: 785


"Abuse" might happen by lowering the cost of death by 80%. Some long hard quests may take you deep into a dungeon. Is it possible that grouped players may be willing to pay the price of just one blessing to get teleported back home? All the group needs to do is walk in at 40% health after they hurt each other and let the monster kill them.

Would also work in the case of a quest gone bad and people want to get back to the city without losing pve blessings.

Not that I think being able to teleport at a cost is a bad thing. I just think it is a possible "abuse" of the system we have now, though since it does have a cost it might not actually happen.

I can imagine a group that failed at killing say Orshabaal, but is grouped and too close to him to run away, being motivated to kill each other off to save money.

Elleandor


Originally posted by Craban on 27.08.2010 12:55:03:
> What is it?
>
> This is an additional blessing. All it does is if
> someone gets killed in PvP (received at least 50% PvP
> damage prior to the death) who has this blessing, he
> will not lose his regular blessings and his AOL.
>
> It can be bought at any temple NPC and costs the same
> as one regular blessing. You can only buy it though
> if you already have at least one regular blessing.
>
> What should be tested?
>
> - Are there ways to abuse this?
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28.08.2010 01:57:36
Quote Post #28323342

 
Borr Henceforth
Senator

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Level: 49

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Posts: 2853


Originally posted by Xadam:

> I think that the mechanism should distinguish death
> made by party members and regular white/red skulled
> players. In case of death being caused by party
> member we can assume that it happened during the
> hunt, so the proposed mechanism is tolerable. In case
> of attackers not being party members, we should
> assume that major damage was caused in order to
> kill.

The effect will be that players won't use the party system anymore.
28.08.2010 12:17:02
Quote Post #28325788

 
Xadam
Senator

Inhabitant of Lunara
Profession: Knight
Level: 150

Posts: 6556


Originally posted by Borr Henceforth on 28.08.2010 12:17:02:
> Originally posted by Xadam:
>
> > I think that the mechanism should distinguish
> death
> > made by party members and regular white/red
> skulled
> > players. In case of death being caused by party
> > member we can assume that it happened during the
> > hunt, so the proposed mechanism is tolerable. In
> case
> > of attackers not being party members, we should
> > assume that major damage was caused in order to
> > kill.
>
> The effect will be that players won't use the party
> system anymore.
I doubt it'd make people stop using party mode. If they hunt the way that they hit each other (for example area spells), party modes protect them from getting skulled. That's the main purpose of being in a party mode. When a PK team comes, they will have to take an unjustified kill to eliminate those party members. People can choose whether they want addition pvp protection in means of skull system, or pvp protection from their hunting mates.

//Xadam
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28.08.2010 12:39:28
Quote Post #28325885

 
Emzy Thainheart

Inhabitant of Titania
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 187

Vice Leader of the Retaliation (Rambo)

Posts: 4926


Originally posted by Sir Elleandor on 28.08.2010 01:57:36:
> "Abuse" might happen by lowering the cost of death by
> 80%. Some long hard quests may take you deep into a
> dungeon. Is it possible that grouped players may be
> willing to pay the price of just one blessing to get
> teleported back home? All the group needs to do is
> walk in at 40% health after they hurt each other and
> let the monster kill them.
>
> Would also work in the case of a quest gone bad and
> people want to get back to the city without losing
> pve blessings.
>
> Not that I think being able to teleport at a cost is
> a bad thing. I just think it is a possible "abuse" of
> the system we have now, though since it does have a
> cost it might not actually happen.
>
> I can imagine a group that failed at killing say
> Orshabaal, but is grouped and too close to him to run
> away, being motivated to kill each other off to save
> money.
>
> Elleandor
[...]

I think they would prefer teleporting eachother, rather than killing eachother
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28.08.2010 13:00:49
Edited by Emzy Thainheart
on 28.08.2010 13:01:08
Quote Post #28325985

 
Craban
Product Manager

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Posts: 4103


  • Originally posted by Sir Elleandor on 28.08.2010 01:57:36:

    > "Abuse" might happen by lowering the cost of death by
    > 80%. Some long hard quests may take you deep into a
    > dungeon. Is it possible that grouped players may be
    > willing to pay the price of just one blessing to get
    > teleported back home? All the group needs to do is
    > walk in at 40% health after they hurt each other and
    > let the monster kill them.

    Very interesting. now, there is of course still a death penalty left, so you do not get it for free totally. That means that if people are really willing to perform this "teleport", then that means that generally the reduction to 80% and the PvP blessing price are indeed too low. I do not think however that this is the case, but we will see.
    ________________
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    A very good approach on how to play Tibia WITH others rather than AGAINST!
  • 28.08.2010 13:30:18
    Quote Post #28326129

     
    Fad van Nal

    Inhabitant of Danubia
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    Level: 49

    Old school of the Sekte

    Posts: 3493


    Interesting that on the one hand we are discussing that the skill loss might be too high (especially for high skilled players, generally those "qualified" for this type of "teleport" and on the other hand see the 80% reduction as cheap way to get out. That doesn't really go together and either side must be wrong.

    I'd vote for the skill loss to be too tough to take and could hardly imagine anyone to be willing to pay a reduced death penalty (+blessing) just to get out of a dungeon (unless extremely desperate).
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    28.08.2010 14:55:00
    Quote Post #28326603

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Scenario:

    A player gets killed in PVM.

    Spawning in temple:
    natural bless = 0
    pvp bless = 1

    Being a smart player, he wears the amulet of loss which he always carries around. Trying to reach Eremo, he gets pked and he loses the pvp blessing.

    Spawning in temple:
    natural bless = 0
    pvp bless = 0
    AOL = 1

    He can't buy the pvp blessing, hence if he will be pked again, he will waste the aol, resulting totally unprotected the 3rd time.

    Hence:
    It can be bought at any temple NPC and costs the same as one regular blessing. You can only buy it though if you already have at least one regular blessing or wearing an AOL.

    Further comments will follow.


    Aleppe
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    28.08.2010 15:29:01
    Quote Post #28326807

     

    Página 2:

    Craban
    Product Manager

    Inhabitant of Arcania
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    Posts: 4103


    Added your comment to the list, will look into it on monday, but this should not be hard.
    ________________
    I'm not a man of too many faces,
    The mask I wear is one.

    (Sting)
    A very good approach on how to play Tibia WITH others rather than AGAINST!
    28.08.2010 15:45:09
    Quote Post #28326897

     
    Delixu
    Senator

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    Level: 186

    Phalangites of the Phalanx Eroica (The Shadow Hunter)

    Posts: 10452


    Personally, I never thought PVP should be a separate feature, I always thought it was a last resort - hence why I play optional pvp (and I still preffer calling it non-pvp ) - so the whole concept of this feels kinda bizarre to me, and I'll have to play the devil's advocate role here.

    While I understand that powerabusing is a serious concern with players getting killed for their opinions rather than for their actions, and players being killed for no reason whatsoever other than the standard "I felt like it", I do not think PVP-deaths should be made less costly than PVM deaths. With this, the only thing you will ensure is that wars will last for a lot longer, and the warmongers, as you call them, will wind up being extremely happy. If dying in a war costs 10k instead of 100k, you can literally die ten times for the price of one. And we all know 'warmongers' (or botters, as I preffer to call most of them) have no trouble getting experience back.

    Finally, there have always been things I never understood in Tibia, and this will also fall into it. If I die after an attempted at power abusing backfires, I lose 10k. However, if I die due to a masskick or a microlag, I lose 100k. Quite honestly, it does not seem fair at all that those who take place in fights should be more protected than those who fall short on an internet connection while exping.


    --Delixu
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    28.08.2010 17:37:19
    Edited by Delixu
    on 28.08.2010 17:37:34
    Quote Post #28327741

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    Del,

    Here is why we are taking the approach on the fair fight rules and pvp blessing.

    As a level XX I know what monsters I can hunt that are appropriate for my level. And pretty much so, a death to these monsters will be very rare. Rare enough that when it does happen, or when I stumble into an area I should not be in, I learn from it, and yes, it does cause some pain.
    This is how the game is suppose to be.

    But as a level 16, I can (and have) been killed by much higher level chars "just because". I did not do anything to antagonize them, I did not steal their loot nor take their hunting spot. I was just a target of opportunity and they could crush me like a bug, and they did.

    And there was not a bloody thing I could do about it!

    Why should a death like that cost me as much as a hunting death?

    When you hunt you have control over it, but when you get abused by a higher level or gang, you have no control. And the harsh death penalty is why so many people pay their boh when threatened by that high level or gang. (And then they still wind up dead.....)

    These new rules remove the reward for the bullies. And it reduces the harm for the victim. This will remove a lot of the stigma and problems that we have in the pvp servers.

    As to your comments on wars and the cost of them. My original idea was that the fair fight rules would only apply to an unskulled person. So it would not apply to pk'rs or those in war. But the decision was made to also apply these new rules to all to make the pvp aspect of the game more fun.
    28.08.2010 21:25:54
    Quote Post #28329638

     
    Magus Firefly

    Inhabitant of Refugia
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 225

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    Posts: 5151


    Hi

    Originally posted by Craban on 28.08.2010 13:30:18:
    >
  • Originally posted by Sir Elleandor on
    > 28.08.2010 01:57:36
    :
    >
    > > "Abuse" might happen by lowering the cost of death
    > by
    > > 80%. Some long hard quests may take you deep into
    > a
    > > dungeon. Is it possible that grouped players may
    > be
    > > willing to pay the price of just one blessing to
    > get
    > > teleported back home? All the group needs to do is
    > > walk in at 40% health after they hurt each other
    > and
    > > let the monster kill them.
    >
    > Very interesting. now, there is of course still a
    > death penalty left, so you do not get it for free
    > totally. That means that if people are really willing
    > to perform this "teleport", then that means that
    > generally the reduction to 80% and the PvP blessing
    > price are indeed too low. I do not think however that
    > this is the case, but we will see.

    I can say that I would never want any teleport for 20k gold, even not without loosing any skills/levels.

    And Im sure only very very few will ever do it. So I consider such an "abuse" as up to irrelevant. (Additionally noone gets hurt when a player teleports into the temple).
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  • 29.08.2010 17:34:00
    Edited by Magus Firefly
    on 29.08.2010 17:35:55
    Quote Post #28335878

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    Originally posted by Sir Elleandor on 28.08.2010 01:57:36:
    > "Abuse" might happen by lowering the cost of death by
    > 80%. Some long hard quests may take you deep into a
    > dungeon. Is it possible that grouped players may be
    > willing to pay the price of just one blessing to get
    > teleported back home? All the group needs to do is
    > walk in at 40% health after they hurt each other and
    > let the monster kill them.
    >
    > Would also work in the case of a quest gone bad and
    > people want to get back to the city without losing
    > pve blessings.
    >

    Tanny had asked me to look into the abuse possibility of a situation like a "quest gone bad" where someone is being overwhelmed by monsters. What if that persons friend killed them to save them the 5 blessings.

    IMHO this question was answered when we did that test with the zerks and also by examining the details of that question.

    If that person is being so overwhelmed where their friends can not save them, then there is very little chance that the friends will be able to deal the 50% pvp damage to save the regular blessings.

    So IMHO the odds of the pvp blessing being abused in this manner is astronomically small. Sure, one or two people might be able to pull it off a time or two, but I don't see how it will be a common abuse.
    29.08.2010 18:01:43
    Quote Post #28336117

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
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    1k doesn't worth the same on Optional, Open and Hardcore PVP servers: just look at all those 'WT services'.

    I think that in Hardcore servers the pvp blessing should be cheaper.


    Aleppe

    [edit]

    Was that 'killed by a Scorpion of Aleppe' issue in Optional servers fixed? If not, I smell abuses in Optional pv, in case you're going to fix the summons/convinced creatures damages vs unjusts.
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    30.08.2010 16:03:26
    Edited by Aleppe
    on 30.08.2010 16:08:13
    Quote Post #28343266

     
    Craban
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    Originally posted by Aleppe on 30.08.2010 16:03:26:

    > Was that 'killed by a Scorpion of Aleppe' issue in
    > Optional servers fixed? If not, I smell abuses in
    > Optional pv, in case you're going to fix the
    > summons/convinced creatures damages vs unjusts.

    Actually no, and the feedback from our programmer was that fixing this would require several bigger changes in how things work. So far, we have not found this as important enough to justify that kind of programming.
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    30.08.2010 17:04:42
    Quote Post #28343753

     
    Craban
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    A few improvements are underway, see first post for details.
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    30.08.2010 17:09:37
    Quote Post #28343786

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
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    Although off-topic, still, I feel the lack of a cheaper puppy-aol for chars up to lv 50. Given that FFR will not -evenly- reduce item loss, I feel that low lv chars will be, proportionally, the most exposed in suffering eventual economical loss due to pvp deaths even with the 'Twist of Fate'.

    If they will buy an AOL, they won't lose it after a pvp death and the pvp blessing is very cheap for low levels

    Yes, they could buy an AOL for 50k and protect it with the pvp blessing, but 50k for a fair low lv char in an Open pvp/Hardore server are a lot of money.
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    30.08.2010 17:50:10
    Quote Post #28344158

     
    Alecto Misc

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    Craban,

    I have a serious concern about the summons issue. If summons can not be counted as pvp damage, then I feel we will see this abused to make the lower level chars have to pay their new "boh". Either pay boh or buy all 5 blessings and their death will not be reduced from those 2 level 50 sorcs with a pair of zerks each.

    All the pk mages have to do is make sure wand is in their bp, let the zerks do the attacking, and the victim won't suffer any pvp damage, so the whole death is treated as monster.

    This can bring down level 30's and 40's fairly easily, the ones that are just buying blessings and just starting to acquire good and expensive eq that they are trying to protect. These are the ones that are most in need of the protections we are trying to offer.
    30.08.2010 18:05:54
    Quote Post #28344279

     
    Craban
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    Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 30.08.2010 18:05:54:
    > Craban,
    >
    > I have a serious concern about the summons issue. If
    > summons can not be counted as pvp damage, then I feel
    > we will see this abused to make the lower level chars
    > have to pay their new "boh". Either pay boh or buy
    > all 5 blessings and their death will not be reduced
    > from those 2 level 50 sorcs with a pair of zerks
    > each.
    >
    > All the pk mages have to do is make sure wand is in
    > their bp, let the zerks do the attacking, and the
    > victim won't suffer any pvp damage, so the whole
    > death is treated as monster.
    >
    > This can bring down level 30's and 40's fairly
    > easily, the ones that are just buying blessings and
    > just starting to acquire good and expensive eq that
    > they are trying to protect. These are the ones that
    > are most in need of the protections we are trying to
    > offer.

    Ah, that is a little misunderstanding. The damage done by the zerks still is half counted to the agressor while it is being done. It is really tricky to explain this, let us try it out tomorrow with the change that is coming. It will probably be tomorrow afternoon sometime. I'll try it with you then, ok?
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    30.08.2010 18:22:09
    Quote Post #28344408

     
    Alecto Misc

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    Originally posted by Craban on 30.08.2010 18:22:09:
    >
    > Ah, that is a little misunderstanding. The damage
    > done by the zerks still is half counted to the
    > agressor while it is being done. It is really tricky
    > to explain this, let us try it out tomorrow with the
    > change that is coming. It will probably be tomorrow
    > afternoon sometime. I'll try it with you then, ok?

    sounds good, and I hope these change will take care of it. That was just the first thing that popped up in my mind when I read your comments.
    30.08.2010 19:35:23
    Quote Post #28345128

     
    Aleppe

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    I don't have great concerns about summons, but I'll check what happens convincing Quaras


    Aleppe
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    31.08.2010 07:40:43
    Quote Post #28350300

     
    Alecto Misc

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    Originally posted by Craban on 30.08.2010 18:22:09:
    > The damage
    > done by the zerks still is half counted to the
    > agressor while it is being done.

    We used my little druid to test this out today with the new formula.

    I have 275HP, so 220 is the magac number.

    Jess summoned a ds. (2 zerks would be faster)

    Test #1.
    I dropped down to rats, took my hp down to 223 came back up and Jess used ds to attack me, no wand, no strikes, all summon damage.
    I only lost the pvp blessing.
    BTW, I realized the new message was showing up as I hit the enter key, I think it said my death was reduced by 78%. I just need to not be so fast at wanting to relog.

    Bought new pvp blessing.

    Test #2.
    Back to rats, took hp down to around 214.

    My health bar was still dark green. Jess used ds to attack.
    On this death I lost my 5 blessings.

    IMHO this is still a major problem, and will make it where a mage can use a pair of zerks to terrorize lower levels.
    2 mages with 2 zerks each, and even level 40's and 50's could be in trouble, especially if they are caught at a hunting ground after they have taken just a little bit of damage.

    I think also that trap I outlined to magus yesterday could be used to milk and then kill a higher level to cost them their 5 blessings.

    --------------------------------

    Here are some possible solutions that a few of us tossed out in game.

    #1. Make summons damage count as 100% pvp damage. Leaving it where the mage only gets 1/2 exp when hunting with summons. You already said this is a problem, but we wanted to mention it because it would seem this would be the best solution to the problem.

    #2. Right now the formula is based on your total hp, that is why I said that 220 was the magic number for my druid. Below 220 and the summons do less than 40% pvp damage to my total hp.
    So how about changing the check to this.
    40% of (available health in last 60 seconds or total health, which even is less)
    This way if the pk'rs catch a person that is just below that "magic" number and 1 hit them with summons, the victim does not lose their blessings. If the person has time to heal, then the formula goes to 40% of total health, and it would work out ok.

    #3. make summons swapable. If the monster is a summons or convinced, make it where the victim can swap with it.

    #4. Since #1 is a problem due to mages only getting 1/2 experience, then change the amount of exp mages get when hunting with summons.
    Give it a minute and let's examine why this might be a good idea.

    Look at the cost of a summon, especially to get a "good one" that can deal some damage for hunting. It is very expensive to summon, for mages below 50, just one summons uses up a large portion of their mana. So they either have to drink 6 potions or stand around for 15 to 20 minutes to regen their mana, and that is just for 1 summon!
    Then you have to consider, that each time you change levels, it means a new summons is required. There just are not that many hunting grounds where it is worth while using that much mana to make a summons.

    So this cost does create a balance and could justify having the mage receive 75 to 100% of the experience. This would also mean that the damage done by summons would increase up to 75 to 100%, which eliminates the problem of lower levels being pk'd by summons and losing their regular blessings.

    #5. removing summons and convince creatures.
    They are not very good for hunting, and are used mostly for pvp. And since this is a pvp issue that can be abused to harm people, perhaps the simplest and easiest approach is to do away with the summons and convinced creatures.

    -----------------------------
    Question.
    Are convinced creatures counted as a summons for damage and exp?
    31.08.2010 18:14:00
    Edited by Alecto Misc
    on 31.08.2010 18:15:58
    Quote Post #28353740

     
    Alegard

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    Thumbs up I Would Take Possible Solution #4

    Indeed summons are used more to PvP than to hunt, and even those who use their summons to damage their hunting prey do so by extreme need at very low levels (My sister used Monks to hunt Chor's Lizards when she was around lvl 27, but quited in less than 5 levels, cause they were too slow and she was already good enough as to hunt without them).

    I think that the Summon Creature spell needs to be revised, it is becoming quite obsolete, but not taken away, that would be too lame, as it is a classic aspect of Tibia that could instead be improved further.
    If in time this spell could be done so higher leveled summoners could summon better creatures that the ones available now, this spell could be more useful for hunts, but also would imply that those same summoners would have more power to oppress others.
    I still remember what is was like to travel from Thais to Venore, fearing you would spot a couple of Berserkers or Fire Elementals out of place, cause you knew you wouldn't be able to escape it.

    For all those reasons, i say we should think about the future of Tibia and change this spell to grant summoners full exp. for their summons attacks and also to consider every bit of damage a Summon does as PvP damage, cause it actually is.

    That people would resort to hunt more with summons? So be it!
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    31.08.2010 19:43:39
    Quote Post #28354513

     
    Nymet

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    Question.
    Are convinced creatures counted as a summons for damage and exp?


    Answer is I believe it is counted as a summon in terms of exp/damage

    Now if that is true Alecto that is a pretty big exploit and PA'ers will abuse that to force their enemy's to drop all of their blessings. I agree, summoned/convince creatures should count as PvP damage since they require the player to attack so thus it counts as PvP.
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    31.08.2010 19:44:43
    Quote Post #28354524

     
    Gorak

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    Why not just kill the summons?
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    31.08.2010 21:53:11
    Quote Post #28355536

     
    Alecto Misc

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    Originally posted by Gorak on 31.08.2010 21:53:11:
    > Why not just kill the summons?

    Come to thais on a low level and let me attack you with 2 zerks.

    Or better yet, let me use 2 mages and 4 zerks.

    Not much of a chance to kill them when in 1 or 2 hits you are seeing "alas....."

    Or, as we have shown with the little trap I laid out using a small team, even a level 100 mage can be trapped by a single demon skelly, and then a few fire elementals can drain his supplies.

    Yes it may take some time, but that also favors the abusers that have the goal of making the victim lose his 5 blessings.
    31.08.2010 22:36:15
    Quote Post #28355957

     
    Craban
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    We'll try solution #3 today. I will also again ask about solution #1.

    #2 is actually not fully correct. The formula does not go towards your total HP but towards the total damage that you received within the last 60 seconds, so if you have healed like 10 times full HP in that time, then it is that which is the basis of the calculation.
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    01.09.2010 08:30:15
    Quote Post #28359273

     
    Alecto Misc

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    Originally posted by Craban on 01.09.2010 08:30:15:
    > We'll try solution #3 today. I will also again ask
    > about solution #1.
    >
    > #2 is actually not fully correct. The formula does
    > not go towards your total HP but towards the total
    > damage that you received within the last 60 seconds,
    > so if you have healed like 10 times full HP in that
    > time, then it is that which is the basis of the
    > calculation.

    ok.

    Just wanted to comment that solution #3 is primarily to eliminate that trap for the higher levels that could be used to drain their supplies, it does not help the lower level (say level 40 and lower) that gets hit by a few zerks at one time.
    01.09.2010 16:09:20
    Quote Post #28362048

     

    Página 3:

    Craban
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    Ok, we are implementing #3 and #1 right now. The only difference with #1 is that if the summon is killed before the victim is, its damage will still only count half. That would now be difficult to explain, the main problem is that once it is dead, the server does not know anymore that it was a summon and can thus not change the attribution of its damage anymore.

    While we do #3, we will actually allow players to push all kinds of summons, also those that are not pushable as wild creatures.
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    01.09.2010 17:22:21
    Edited by Craban
    on 01.09.2010 17:22:57
    Quote Post #28362802

     
    Blue Jess

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    Cool
    01.09.2010 17:28:08
    Quote Post #28362864

     
    Virsaemna Heartlistener

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    Great
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    01.09.2010 17:30:06
    Quote Post #28362891

     
    Alecto Misc

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    Originally posted by Craban on 01.09.2010 17:22:21:
    > Ok, we are implementing #3 and #1 right now. The only
    > difference with #1 is that if the summon is killed
    > before the victim is, its damage will still only
    > count half. That would now be difficult to explain,
    > the main problem is that once it is dead, the server
    > does not know anymore that it was a summon and can
    > thus not change the attribution of its damage
    > anymore.
    >
    > While we do #3, we will actually allow players to
    > push all kinds of summons, also those that are not
    > pushable as wild creatures.


    AWEOME, glad to hear you were able to find a way to get that accomplished.

    I think it would be exceptionally hard to describe and pull off abusing the one hole that you said remained about if the summons is killed first. If there is time to kill the summon, then the victim should have time to heal, which would put the damage into the pvp range.

    Thanks for being able to take care of this.
    01.09.2010 17:33:36
    Quote Post #28362927

     
    Craban
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    Fixes online, see first post.
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    01.09.2010 20:01:23
    Quote Post #28364404

     
    Paem Aela

    Inhabitant of Nerana
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    Just to add the bug in its proper thread.

    Killed this char while wearing just AOL + twist of fate (no natural blessings)


    Back to temple temple:

    12:33 Paem Aela [73]: yes
    12:34 Brewster: You already possess this blessing.

    AOL gone.


    Aleppe
    10.09.2010 12:35:44
    Quote Post #28436444

     
    Craban
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    Some fixed done.

    Public feedback can start here in a few minutes.
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    10.09.2010 18:29:56
    Quote Post #28438590

     
    Paem Aela

    Inhabitant of Nerana
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    Allow buying the blessing also with no blessings but having an AOL in your inventory

    Either

    I'm not loosing my blessings when I die without twist of fate

    or

    AOL equipped saved my natural blessings

    or

    I can buy twist of fate without blessings and without AOL equipped.

    I've to go now, would be helpful if somebody could check it. if not, tomorrow morning I'll do it myself.
    10.09.2010 19:47:47
    Edited by Paem Aela
    on 10.09.2010 19:50:09
    Quote Post #28439226

     
    Eddie Sariban

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    This pvp blessing is actually awesome, becomes impossible to abuse huge teams out, much harder to hunt people off servers, wars still needed for "ruling" intentions aswell as dying costs less, hurts less but still hurts.

    The major thing is fixing the war mode features, as by selecting those who will participate and those who wont, this shouldnt be AS optional as it is now, anyways i'm not aware of the changes concerning it.

    Big step taken, congratulations.
    10.09.2010 20:52:36
    Quote Post #28439679

     
    Sephferiuz

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    Noone can be hunted now... gratz.

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    11.09.2010 00:22:28
    Quote Post #28441132

     
    Aleppe

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    @ Allow buying the blessing also with no blessings but having an AOL in your inventory:

    All previous bugs appear to have been fixed. Good.

    Now a last issue: not having any natural blessing, one can buy the twist of fate even not wearing an AOL but keeping it in his bp.

    I think that it would be far better to force players to wear the aol while buying the twist of fate: if not, I'm afraid we'll see a lot of complaints of players who bought the twist of fate thinking to have the blessings and loosing their eq after a pvp death.


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    11.09.2010 07:46:17
    Edited by Aleppe
    on 11.09.2010 07:47:35
    Quote Post #28443405

     
    Sakan at Iridia

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    Yes! Players in farmine who want's to buy the twist of fate blessing are put in to the disadvetage because he do not sell the blessing.
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    11.09.2010 12:41:23
    Quote Post #28444489

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
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    Originally posted by Sakan at Iridia on 11.09.2010 12:41:23:
    > Yes! Players in farmine who want's to buy the twist
    > of fate blessing are put in to the disadvetage
    > because he do not sell the blessing.

    Ye, it appears that

    Originally posted by Aleppe on 02.09.2010 14:10:09:
    > Farmine temple NPC needs a check: no twist of fate
    > there.
    >

    went overlooked. Thx for reporting


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    11.09.2010 12:57:36
    Quote Post #28444564

     
    Craban
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    Ups, yes, sorry, will fix that npc next week.
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    11.09.2010 14:24:49
    Quote Post #28445000

     
    Alecto Misc

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    Originally posted by Aleppe on 11.09.2010 07:46:17:
    > @ Allow buying the blessing also with no blessings

    > Now a last issue: not having any natural blessing,
    > one can buy the twist of fate even not wearing an AOL
    > but keeping it in his bp.

    after some thought, I can see where a person might want to buy the pvp blessing first, so that as they make the journey to get the other blessings, those blessings will be protected from a random pk event, which would save them from having to make that journey a second time.

    If I remember correctly, if you have only pvp blessing (no other blessings and no aol) and you die (by monster or pk) you keep the pvp blessing because there was nothing for it to protect.

    I still think the npc text should be modified to make it easier. And it would be a big help if the npc told you how many blessings you have that the pvp blessing would protect. Either that, or put a ceremonial ank in each temple.

    >
    > I think that it would be far better to force players
    > to wear the aol while buying the twist of fate: if
    > not, I'm afraid we'll see a lot of complaints of
    > players who bought the twist of fate thinking to have
    > the blessings and loosing their eq after a pvp
    > death.

    Just as a refresher question here. What is the sequence of events on a death? Is it:

    check for regular blessings first, and if you have them then the aol is not used.

    Check for aol if you do not have all 5 blessings.

    Does the aol work if it is in your bp, or does it have to be part of your eq?
    11.09.2010 18:40:23
    Edited by Alecto Misc
    on 11.09.2010 18:42:33
    Quote Post #28446601

     
    Aissy

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    My own opinion is that deaths in pvp should hurt, kinda the way it currently is (wars and justified pvp events should hurt, while i want changes so unjustified pvp events should hurt less), so I dont like the ideas of these reductions (FFR and pvp blessing).

    But if im putting my own opinions how it should be aside and accepting these new changes.

    Then I think the pvp-blessing is too cheap.

    Basically i think the pvp blessing should cost equal to atleast two normal blessings
    (preferably it could also be an alot more complex cost, where it would be lowered more the more unjustified your death was)
    11.09.2010 19:46:09
    Quote Post #28447031

     
    Darwin Duck

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    Praefectus of the Agony (Ninjahh)

    Posts: 744


    Isn't this blessing a little too cheap? It should cost the same price as two blessings if you ask me, which would mean 40k for high levels.

    And an offtopic: How long will the Testserver be online?
    We want these features now :<
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    12.09.2010 12:10:52
    Quote Post #28452027

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    @ Alecto:

    Just as a refresher question here. What is the sequence of events on a death? Is it:

    Does the aol work if it is in your bp, or does it have to be part of your eq?


    Yup, natural blesings before, AOL later.
    To work the AOL needs to be equipped: that's why I think it would be better to allow chars to buy the Twist of Fate (without natural blesings) just wearing it.


    @ Aissy / Darwin Duck

    The point is that non-consensual fights are the engine of an open pvp environment: there can't be a justified pvp event without a previous unjustified one.

    More pvp events = more open pvp fun.

    This is the reason for which pvp death penalty has to be cheaper than pvm ones, but not only.
    The revenge skull and the virtual revenge skull ( within 15 mins from victim's death), will bring more pvp freedom (no unjust), hence pvp deaths will be more frequent.

    Moreover, the 2nd PVP patch (not this one) will turn the actual - almost worthless - war system into an awesome feature for all server kinds, hence players will die very often (HLs included).

    Few words about : preferably it could also be an alot more complex cost, where it would be lowered more the more unjustified your death was

    That's right the Alecto Misc's proposal for a possible counterwight to limit the 20 unjusts x frag rule.
    Otherwise, always talking about a possible counterwight for a 20 unj x frag reduction, I'd prefer it relying on repeated pvp deaths within a short period.


    Aleppe
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    12.09.2010 13:13:51
    Quote Post #28452366

     
    Aissy

    Inhabitant of Elysia
    Profession: Elite Knight
    Level: 239

    Salvation of the Cruoris

    Posts: 561


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 12.09.2010 13:13:51:
    > @ Aissy / Darwin Duck
    >
    > The point is that non-consensual fights are the
    > engine of an open pvp environment: there can't be a
    > justified pvp event without a previous unjustified
    > one.
    >
    > More pvp events = more open pvp fun.
    >
    > This is the reason for which pvp death penalty has to
    > be cheaper than pvm ones, but not only.

    I understand your points but theres more to it

    For example, if you take these reasonings to the extreme then if you would loose nothing at all when dying it should mean even more pvp fun.
    This i disagree with, there should be some sort of loss when dying (i guess this is where your "but not only" part comes in).

    And its this loss that needs to be balanced (pvp fun vs loss from dying), in my opinion it should be higher than it is currently on the testserver
    12.09.2010 15:23:31
    Quote Post #28453020

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    For example, if you take these reasonings to the extreme then if you would loose nothing at all when dying it should mean even more pvp fun.
    This i disagree with, there should be some sort of loss when dying (i guess this is where your "but not only" part comes in).


    Indeed, the pvp death penalty has to be kept into acceptable ranges. In my opinion we could search a better tuning for the Twist of fate cost for chars ove lv 120, and leave the rest as it is.


    Aleppe
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    12.09.2010 15:30:12
    Quote Post #28453060

     

    Página 4:

    Aissy

    Inhabitant of Elysia
    Profession: Elite Knight
    Level: 239

    Salvation of the Cruoris

    Posts: 561


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 12.09.2010 15:30:12:
    > For example, if you take these reasonings to the
    > extreme then if you would loose nothing at all when
    > dying it should mean even more pvp fun.
    > This i disagree with, there should be some sort of
    > loss when dying (i guess this is where your "but not
    > only" part comes in).

    >
    > Indeed, the pvp death penalty has to be kept into
    > acceptable ranges. In my opinion we could search a
    > better tuning for the Twist of fate cost for chars
    > ove lv 120, and leave the rest as it is.
    >
    >
    > Aleppe


    I can accept this, it actually seems like a good thing to do.

    It can for example be that the level cap for the price of the twist of fate blessing will be higher than the current level 120.
    Up to level 120 the blessing cost as currently and above 120 the cost continues to grow in the same way (200 gp for each level) until the cost reaches a limit on maybe 50k.

    This would mean the costs for:
    Level 120 would be 20k
    Level 150 would be 26k
    Level 200 would be 36k
    Level 250 would be 46k
    Level 300 would be 50k
    12.09.2010 16:24:51
    Quote Post #28453404

     
    Asca Neth

    Inhabitant of Morgana
    Profession: Druid
    Level: 19

    Posts: 136


    I see this pvp-blessing as perfect! Don't try to change it, keep it as it is.

    People who enjoy pvp: You can die alot more often now which results in multiple battles and longer battles compared to before. I don't see the thrill disappearing, you STILL can lose as much as before, just that you have more of the pvp now before the people in your guild start to cry about money.

    People who don't play for pvp, who enjoy pve-ing: It'll be a lot harder to actually trap and waste you with the new swap-system already and now if you see no way out, it's much cheaper to just die and save ressources. Usually they have to take more unjustifieds now or else you will swap your way to pz. They need to kill you 5x as much to cause the same financial loss to you which means they take 5x more unjustifieds + you can actually stand up for yourself with the 7-day revenge skull after it.
    12.09.2010 16:31:47
    Quote Post #28453464

     
    Craban
    Product Manager

    Inhabitant of Arcania
    Profession: None
    Level: 4

    Posts: 4103


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 12.09.2010 13:13:51:
    > @ Alecto:
    >
    > Just as a refresher question here. What is the
    > sequence of events on a death? Is it:
    >
    > Does the aol work if it is in your bp, or does it
    > have to be part of your eq?

    >
    > Yup, natural blesings before, AOL later.
    > To work the AOL needs to be equipped: that's why I
    > think it would be better to allow chars to buy the
    > Twist of Fate (without natural blesings) just
    > wearing it.

    We have thought about this. Actually, it really makes no big difference if you have to wear the AOL when buying or just have it with you. There is no way we can stop people from taking the AOL off right after bying anyways. Therefore, we decided that it is ok to have it with you. After all, if you forget to put it on after you bought ToF, you will not lose ToF either, so no loss there. The biggest loss the guy has because he forgot to put the AOL on, but that is his own mistake.

    Apart from this, the price discussion seems to have very few support so far. I am open for more feedback, but right now, I don't see much reason to change anything on this feature.
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    13.09.2010 12:18:52
    Quote Post #28460034

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    For the test server the "assistant" was provided to give people money. This made it very easy for people to buy supplies and pay for blessings.

    I understand this was required to facilitate the constant pvp action, to get people where they could see the effects of the different new features. However, the one thing it did was mask the cost of keeping up with the pvp blessing.

    I reviewed my death list, and all of the deaths were from players more than DOUBLE my level. Many of them the combined levels of the killers were around 4X of my level.

    But the pvp blessing cost the same each time, and my concern is that for a lower to mid level fair player that is "hunted" by a leading guild using many botted high levels, the cost could quickly deplete their bank account. So I am still of the opinion that the cost should scale to the FFR death reduction.
    13.09.2010 16:53:25
    Quote Post #28461641

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 13.09.2010 16:53:25:
    So I am still of the opinion that the
    > cost should scale to the FFR death reduction.

    And I'm still convinced that repeated pvp deaths reductions would fit better, given that I'd agree just if talking about to set a counterwight for the 20 unjusts x frag rule.


    Aleppe
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    13.09.2010 16:58:11
    Quote Post #28461667

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    I saw one issue with scaling the cost of the pvp blessing. And that would be for an aggressive low level that is "skull bashing" or is part of a pk team. This would give immunity to the ones causing problems, so,,,,
    Here is my revised idea on this.

    The pvp blessing would scale based on the levels of those that get an UNJUST for the kill. So if the person is the aggressor, they accept that the cost will be the price of 1 regular blessing, but if they are killed by people that are taking the unjust, then they are an "innocent" and the level difference would be a reason to reduce the cost of the pvp blessing.

    With this change, I would be able to support a reduction of the gang frag rule. The only thing is that even with that reduction, if 50 people "unjustly" attack the "victim", then the levels of all 50 are counted.
    Perhaps the ones in excess of the X unjusts revision would be counted as assisted killers.
    13.09.2010 19:01:48
    Quote Post #28462629

     
    Ultis

    Inhabitant of Samera
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 201

    Mad Mage of the Sameras Most Wanted (Powah ranger)

    Posts: 1360


    i havent checked it properly but when i yesterday had red skull i died and lost both pvp bless and the 5 others

    if someone could check this out before i'm on would be nice
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    13.09.2010 19:10:57
    Quote Post #28462729

     
    Deathrider Mot

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Paladin
    Level: 20

    Posts: 389


    I hate it. On test server, using my knight, I found that if a large amount of players were after me and I wasn;t near a PZ (a situation where death is 51% likely), it made more financial sense to simply let them kill me than to waste health pots, mana pots, and time. I lost a ridiculously small portion of my experience and the cost of 1 blessing relative to level is practically free nowadays.

    Cipsoft mentioned in a news message on the front page a while ago about world types, the possibility of a hardcore pvp world which would allow players from open pvp worlds to transfer. I think after this update, the time has come, because there's no longer any real reason to kill anyone in open-pvp: Between SDs and unjusts, it costs the victor more than the person who dies!
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    13.09.2010 19:42:57
    Quote Post #28463031

     
    Deathrider Mot

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Paladin
    Level: 20

    Posts: 389


    Originally posted by Asca Neth on 12.09.2010 16:31:47:
    > I see this pvp-blessing as perfect! Don't try to
    > change it, keep it as it is.
    >
    > People who enjoy pvp: You can die alot more often now
    > which results in multiple battles and longer battles
    > compared to before.

    We didn't like PVP because of "dying a lot", we liked it because the severe death penalties generated so much community political intrigue, webs of shaky alliances, etc.

    Do you think anyone will really bother with any of that now that dying is nearly free? I could afford to die on my level 60 mage several hundred times before it really affected me. All of the tension is gone. I can honestly say that this is the first time I stopped playing a test server not because I died to a ridiculously low level, but just out of boredom. The entire time I was thinking: Yeah dying this much int test and getting right back up is pretty fun, but what the heck will we do to pass the time in normal Tibia now?

    How will "WAR THREAD: GUILD A VS GUILD B" even be taken seriously when everyone knows these guys could fight for the next 7 years without running out of money or levels. War was always the social hub of PVP servers because of the drama, and this update intentionally subtracts drama and makes pvp just another "quest" type thing you try out a couple times for fun then forget about.
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    13.09.2010 19:51:51
    Edited by Deathrider Mot
    on 13.09.2010 19:54:04
    Quote Post #28463126

     
    Asca Neth

    Inhabitant of Morgana
    Profession: Druid
    Level: 19

    Posts: 136


    Originally posted by Deathrider Mot on 13.09.2010 19:51:51:
    > Originally posted by Asca Neth on 12.09.2010
    > 16:31:47
    :
    > > I see this pvp-blessing as perfect! Don't try to
    > > change it, keep it as it is.
    > >
    > > People who enjoy pvp: You can die alot more often
    > now
    > > which results in multiple battles and longer
    > battles
    > > compared to before.
    >
    > We didn't like PVP because of "dying a lot", we liked
    > it because the severe death penalties generated so
    > much community political intrigue, webs of shaky
    > alliances, etc.

    Weird then, me and my team liked battles and the feelings that came with it. Ruling the server over several years was a bonus, nothing more. Hell, almost all of us would've quitted if we hadn't initiated a war every 3 months or so back in those days. Who cares about levels and stuff anway?

    > Do you think anyone will really bother with any of
    > that now that dying is nearly free? I could afford to
    > die on my level 60 mage several hundred times before
    > it really affected me. All of the tension is gone. I
    > can honestly say that this is the first time I
    > stopped playing a test server not because I died to a
    > ridiculously low level, but just out of boredom. The
    > entire time I was thinking: Yeah dying this much int
    > test and getting right back up is pretty fun, but
    > what the heck will we do to pass the time in normal
    > Tibia now?

    I am happy I will not see people crying for money in vent after 2 weeks now. If you think dying isn't a problem anymore, go ahead and die over and over. There is still a bigger penalty than on most other mmorpgs out there.

    > How will "WAR THREAD: GUILD A VS GUILD B" even be
    > taken seriously when everyone knows these guys could
    > fight for the next 7 years without running out of
    > money or levels. War was always the social hub of PVP
    > servers because of the drama, and this update
    > intentionally subtracts drama and makes pvp just
    > another "quest" type thing you try out a couple times
    > for fun then forget about.

    War wasn't a social hub for pvp servers since ages. The only real war nowadays is happening on Kyra anyway and I've yet to see all of them come here and cry about how badly the changes will affect them.
    13.09.2010 20:06:34
    Quote Post #28463264

     
    Aver Ebonheart

    Inhabitant of Celesta
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 14

    Posts: 53


    it wont work with this bless, casue it cost not much and when u will die you lose like nothing. The ppl who wanna kill someone will waste more cash for killing a guy then a guy dieying... so my question is whats the point of make war system? it will be better to die on high knight or pally while get traped and cannot swap position than lose runes and fluids lol
    Deing will be cheaper than get out of trap : D
    thath sux
    13.09.2010 20:21:09
    Quote Post #28463388

     
    Kipermos

    Inhabitant of Aldora
    Profession: Druid
    Level: 37

    Posts: 13


    Originally posted by Aver Ebonheart on 13.09.2010 20:21:09:
    > it wont work with this bless, casue it cost not much
    > and when u will die you lose like nothing. The ppl
    > who wanna kill someone will waste more cash for
    > killing a guy then a guy dieying... so my question is
    > whats the point of make war system? it will be
    > better to die on high knight or pally while get
    > traped and cannot swap position than lose runes and
    > fluids lol
    > Deing will be cheaper than get out of trap : D
    > thath sux

    You kinda answer your own questions. If you want to fight and enjoy pvp, you join warmode. You can kill anyone inside warmode as often as you can. And no, dying is not as cheap as killing. The difference became alot tighter but it's still a remarkable difference. Now if you're trying to PA or random pk, yes you need 5x as many unjusts as before to do it. And this helps neutral people ALOT and encourages more people to play on pvp-servers.
    13.09.2010 20:27:15
    Quote Post #28463444

     
    Memphiz

    Inhabitant of Valoria
    Profession: Royal Paladin
    Level: 162

    One of the Renegade

    Posts: 1322


    I suggest:

    Twist of Fate - only makes normal blessings not dissapear if you die 50% or more by players. The actual experience loss reducement should stay the same as with normal 5 blessings on current rules (means you can lose 2 levels max if I'm not mistaking).

    This means that a death won't result in expensive losses, yet you do lose power in experience/skills as you should.

    Because you won't have expensive losses, it means you can keep the other 80k to buy supplies to get your levels back.

    Yet a player who died can't come back over and over to fight since his losses of his character will be more severe than as this update plans to.


    //Memphiz
    13.09.2010 20:54:39
    Edited by Memphiz
    on 13.09.2010 21:08:32
    Quote Post #28463665

     
    Memphiz

    Inhabitant of Valoria
    Profession: Royal Paladin
    Level: 162

    One of the Renegade

    Posts: 1322


    Originally posted by Kipermos on 13.09.2010 20:27:15:
    > Originally posted by Aver Ebonheart on 13.09.2010
    > 20:21:09
    :
    > You kinda answer your own questions. If you want to
    > fight and enjoy pvp, you join warmode. You can kill
    > anyone inside warmode as often as you can. And no,
    > dying is not as cheap as killing. The difference
    > became alot tighter but it's still a remarkable
    > difference. Now if you're trying to PA or random pk,
    > yes you need 5x as many unjusts as before to do it.
    > And this helps neutral people ALOT and encourages
    > more people to play on pvp-servers.

    You're wrong with this:

    "If you want to fight and enjoy pvp you join warmode"

    This is not true. Warmode is no fun as it is now. Characters outside war sio'ing, trapping.

    With current update, you can only switch places with people that are attacking you -> means outside warmode characters will trap you and NOT attack you, means you can't switch places and you're still trapped.

    And what bothers me is that you guys keep talking about neutral characters... There are no neutral characters.

    In a pvp server most of the time there is 1 or 2 leading guilds. Incase 2, they are most of the time fighting. They fight for spawns and ruling of the server (being able to organise important quests etc) and ofcourse because they like PVP.

    When a neutral player is hunting in a spawn, and a player from a war guild wants to hunt there, most of the time he tries to PA the 'neutral' player away.

    Now here as neutral player you have a decission: You can leave, or you can stay but there will be consequences.

    If you want to be neutral, you accept the fact you have to leave because you don't want to fight and therefore you're at the bottom of the spawn rights. If you want to be on the top, you gotta fight for your rights and therefore u stay but you'll probably get attacked then. But making you stay makes you 'not neutral'.

    And if you're talking about PURE random pk's. These are most of the time not done by leading guilds but by pk guilds. And they won't use a war system, because they are low levels and use luring/trapping tactics to make victims. So this war system is useless to avoid random pk's and to make fair wars.

    Back to the old 2 frags system I'd say, maybe make it 5 frags but not 20... that's overdone.

    //Memphiz
    13.09.2010 20:59:47
    Edited by Memphiz
    on 13.09.2010 21:02:55
    Quote Post #28463702

     
    Ab Devil

    Inhabitant of Menera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 83

    Posts: 7584


    Originally posted by Aver Ebonheart on 13.09.2010 20:21:09:
    > it wont work with this bless, casue it cost not much
    > and when u will die you lose like nothing. The ppl
    > who wanna kill someone will waste more cash for
    > killing a guy then a guy dieying... so my question is
    > whats the point of make war system? it will be
    > better to die on high knight or pally while get
    > traped and cannot swap position than lose runes and
    > fluids lol
    > Deing will be cheaper than get out of trap : D
    > thath sux


    Why should victim's be expected to lose more? Especially innocent ones (unjustily killed players). People who choose to be attackers are not seeing their costs to do so change (it's not going up nor down). All that is happening is the victims are not suffering quite as much. The number one reason why people have been leaving pvp servers in large numbers is due to the constantly high costs of being killed. Lowering the cost of being killed by other players, has a better chance of keeping people on pvp servers. Currently it's not uncommon for high level power abusing guilds to openly prevent people from enjoying the game due to the costs of dying.
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    13.09.2010 21:28:45
    Quote Post #28463989

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    @Memphiz,

    The problem with your reasoning, is that cip does not support "ruling the server". These are not "ruled by pa guild" servers, these are PvP servers with a war mode feature.

    In the focus group I argued long and hard to get a separate war server and a separate "limited" pvp server.

    My thinking was fine, let the ruling guilds and war fighters have a server type they want, and let the neutral people have their own server type.

    The decision was made that the pvp servers would NOT be split up like that, both groups will remain on the same server.

    The decision was made that the pvp servers would NOT be split up like that, both groups will remain on the same server.


    That was so important I thought it deserved repeating!

    So get it through your head, the fact is that there ARE neutral players that are entitled to play on pvp servers, people that do not want anything to do with the war.
    These people are NOT at the bottom of the list for using a spawn, they have as much right to a spawn as someone from a war guild. This is a hard, cold fact, and you might as well face it, this is the new reality.

    You try to come make them leave, I hope you have plenty of unjusts, and you might as well be ready to end up without having any blessings or good eq, because you WILL wind up with a red or black skull and you will go to the temple, dropping everything you have.

    Your days of abusing people are over.

    As to the war mode, those changes will be coming out in phase 2. Most of the features are outlined with many details specified. So most of the work is already done. There is just a little more to be resolved, and you will be hearing more about that shortly after the fall patch is released.
    13.09.2010 21:58:51
    Quote Post #28464247

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    @Craban,

    This is a small thing that I mentioned in the "bug" thread.

    1 small suggestion on the npc script in the temple.

    How about making it a bit shorter such as
    "you have X regular blessings (or you have an aol), you can buy pvp blessing here to protect those blessings/aol, do you want to buy the blessing now or learn more about it?"

    "yes" or "now" would go into the buy routine, "more" would go into the detailed explanation.
    If X is 0, then don't even ask if they want to buy it.
    Just say something like
    "you do not have any regular blessings to protect, do you want to learn more about the pvp blessing?"
    13.09.2010 22:22:12
    Quote Post #28464420

     
    Tannylouise

    Inhabitant of Mythera
    Profession: Elite Knight
    Level: 148

    Ruby Dragon of the Bound by Blood (Devil Woman)

    Posts: 2636


    I would like to suggest that now that pvp blessings are brought in that players can easily check their blessings.

    I believe Alecto suggested it for the test server, I would like to suggest it for all servers.

    Please put something in the temple to test what your blessings are.

    I know we have ceremonial ankhs, however you only get them from POI after level 80 and many players don't carry them, only checking in their dps when they need to.

    I know many players who plan to buy blessings now and checking what you have and don't have has always been an issue.

    I remember one player having to go to every temple again because he still had money left over after buying his blessings and realised he missed one somewhere, and no one online had a ceremonial ankh for him to use.

    Either make the npc's in temple tell you what blessings you already have (much more coding) or put a ceremonial ankh into the temples for checking after you die.

    Honestly, running all over tibia again to check if you have them is a pain and if no one you know has a ceremonial ankh, that's your only option right now.

    Tanny
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    13.09.2010 23:12:48
    Quote Post #28464823

     
    Dal'iya

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Sorcerer
    Level: 24

    Posts: 100


    What I see with this change, is a massive amount of low level pkers. They can kill noobs solo or in 2, so they don't lose many unjusts, also, if a high level friend/other char comes for them, they lose 20% of what they used to. It's simply 5x easier to recover. For low levels it's a matter of 15 minutes. It's fine for me, cause I know how to play and that I can also get the PvP blessing. The problem is...
    Your new players, newbies. They don't buy any blessings, they have actually no idea about them, at least the vast majority. They come to main and go trolls near Thais or Carlin. And bah, dead. Loss of backpack(and loss of around 70-80%, the PKer usually is skilled but low lvl). Ok, another try: bah, another death. Omg where is my shield?! and again.. I quit!!!
    Random PKing is even now a problem for players who just start Tibia. This patch seems to be encouraging low level mass pking, so careful for the newcomers, just a warning from a caring customer.


    The change itself? Definitely way to drastic. 1/5 of cash we used to lose.. insane.

    That's it. Cheers.
    13.09.2010 23:44:49
    Edited by Dal'iya
    on 13.09.2010 23:46:17
    Quote Post #28465078

     
    Memphiz

    Inhabitant of Valoria
    Profession: Royal Paladin
    Level: 162

    One of the Renegade

    Posts: 1322


    Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 13.09.2010 21:58:51:
    > @Memphiz,
    > So get it through your head, the fact is that there
    > ARE neutral players that are entitled to play on pvp
    > servers, people that do not want anything to do with
    > the war.
    > These people are NOT at the bottom of the list for
    > using a spawn, they have as much right to a spawn as
    > someone from a war guild. This is a hard, cold fact,
    > and you might as well face it, this is the new
    > reality.
    >
    > You try to come make them leave, I hope you have
    > plenty of unjusts, and you might as well be ready to
    > end up without having any blessings or good eq,
    > because you WILL wind up with a red or black skull
    > and you will go to the temple, dropping everything
    > you have.
    >
    > Your days of abusing people are over.

    Are you actually threatening me now?

    Ofcourse, everyone who play on a server has the same right to hunt on a certain spawn, but some people are willing to fight for full spawn rights, and others aren't.

    This is all possible because of the pvp system. You can attack players and force them into leaving.

    Anyway, I'm not here to discuss the fact if we can/should do this to people (neutrals?) but rather read my suggestion I made to this pvp blessing

    #post 28463665

    //Memphiz
    14.09.2010 01:07:02
    Quote Post #28465632

     

    Página 5:

    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    @Memphiz

    ya, I read your idea about the pvp blessing, and the thing is, what you proposed is exactly what the pvp blessing does, it only protects your regular blessings or aol. That is the only thing it does, and it cost the price of one blessing.

    So what you proposed is how it already is.

    I "think" what you were trying to say, is that you don't like the Fair Fight Rules that reduce the amount of experience a person loses when they are killed by a higher level, or a gang that far over powers them. And for that, sorry, it won't be removed. If you want to cause your enemy to lose the most amount of exp, then give them a fair fight.

    ------------

    No, I wasn't threatening you, we aren't even on the same server.

    I was just giving stating that the power abuse days are over.

    A power abuser that goes to a spawn to kick someone out, needs to be prepared to use that frag.
    And when that person they killed comes right back out there and they have to kill them again, and again, be ready to be red skull.
    And then when that persons friends show up, it is the power abuser that will lose the blessings and eq.

    People might as well learn how to share, and realize that they won't be able to stop people from hunting.
    You are right, it is a pvp server, but with these changes, the ability of the pa guilds to cause such harm like they did in the past is gone.

    Those that are smart will figure this out quickly. Those that aren't that bright will soon be red or black skull and will be the ones sitting in the depot crying.
    14.09.2010 04:06:44
    Edited by Alecto Misc
    on 14.09.2010 04:07:32
    Quote Post #28466362

     
    Mathenus

    Inhabitant of Nebula
    Profession: Elite Knight
    Level: 123

    Posts: 375


    the PvP blessing is not sellable on Farmine temple npc and when you say "blessing" to him, he says only the 5 old blessing and without bold on each blessing name
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    14.09.2010 04:44:42
    Quote Post #28466508

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    @ Deathrider Mot:

    All of the tension is gone

    The only thing which is gone is that players won't be able to force anybody in PZ anymore.


    @ Aver Ebonheart:

    Deing will be cheaper than get out of trap

    Your statement is true just referring to very few particular cases. It's not trying to generalize partially true points that you'll find a valid argument to deny the Twist of Fate fairness.


    @ Dal'iya:

    What I see with this change, is a massive amount of low level pkers

    Do you mean those noobchars marked by an orange skull for 7 days right after their frag?


    Your new players, newbies. They don't buy any blessings, they have actually no idea about them, at least the vast majority.

    Yes, and we have suggested a virual aol for chars up to lv 20, an eventual further protection for chars up to lv 50-60 and to add even in Rook a blessing to teach newcomers.


    The change itself? Definitely way to drastic. 1/5 of cash we used to lose.. insane.

    Way too cheap for botters but fair enough for fair players. Illegal Tibia GPs sellers? Cry me a river.


    Aleppe
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    14.09.2010 08:27:42
    Edited by Aleppe
    on 14.09.2010 08:29:08
    Quote Post #28467220

     
    Dal'iya

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Sorcerer
    Level: 24

    Posts: 100


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 14.09.2010 08:27:42:

    > @ Dal'iya:
    >
    > What I see with this change, is a massive amount
    > of low level pkers

    >
    > Do you mean those noobchars marked by an orange skull
    > for 7 days right after their frag?

    Yep.

    > Your new players, newbies. They don't buy any
    > blessings, they have actually no idea about them, at
    > least the vast majority.

    >
    > Yes, and we have suggested a virual aol for chars up
    > to lv 20, an eventual further protection for chars up
    > to lv 50-60 and to add even in Rook a blessing to
    > teach newcomers.

    Good for the ~20 lvls, further levels shouldn't be protected as much imho, if someone is already level 30~, he should know some about the game already. Just my opinion tho.


    > The change itself? Definitely way to drastic. 1/5
    > of cash we used to lose.. insane.

    >
    > Way too cheap for botters but fair enough for fair
    > players. Illegal Tibia GPs sellers? Cry me a river.

    Yeah, way too cheap for botters, they won't lose much when I kill them. Illegal Tibia GPs sellers, I'm afraid they will find customers anyways, unless this update will ruin the economy of servers. But I guess people will need cash anyways, for dying to kicks, for example.
    As a 100% fair player I can tell you that this doesn't seem really fair to me. Surely, thinking the simpliest way, I'm happy I won't lose much while PKed. If they introduced 1kk each month for each player, everyone would be also happy. Cause who would think about the bad consequences, right?
    The cry me a river statement? I'll be so nice and will not comment on that.
    14.09.2010 11:04:08
    Quote Post #28467650

     
    Mandarke

    Inhabitant of Premia
    Profession: Royal Paladin
    Level: 169

    Bemused of the Awareness

    Posts: 745


    Well, if now pvp death penatly is extermally low (10-15%? of level and 20k?), I guess we can come back to the system what players liked the most - 2 unj for one player again?

    I don't see reason in protecting players by 20 unj anymore, while they get new, very attractive defense against player killers.


    If no... change it at least to 50% reduce of death penatly and 50% cost (50k) by pvp death, always, doent matter how many players take part in killing.

    80% reduced death penatly + blessing costs 20k + 20 unjustes for kill = PVP competitions lost any sense.

    What keeps a lot of players playing tibia is unique and the best pvp system in mmporg games. However, with updates worse (espiecially 20 unj).

    When I started playing this game in 7.6, the game was excited - I had to hold in my bp destroy field runes, magic walls, extra mana fluids and UHs in case of pk atack, before I go hunt on my 30 sorc.

    Althoug form time to time I have beed killed by pks, it made playing this game interesting and helped my improve my general_playing_skill.

    Now? Boring, boring, boring. I can leave depot on my noob chars 100% sure noone atack me. Every day looks the same.


    EDIT
    Look at ANY of computer games (pc, ps2, xbox, also internet games) - players almost ALWAYS prefer playing against his friends (other players), then against a computer (creatures).

    EDIT2
    Other idea is to make it reduced only if you die in war mode only against your enemies.
    But better would be just get back to two unjusts...
    14.09.2010 12:08:03
    Edited by Mandarke
    on 14.09.2010 12:18:06
    Quote Post #28467852

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    @ Dal'iya:

    Good for the ~20 lvls, further levels shouldn't be protected as much imho, if someone is already level 30~, he should know some about the game already. Just my opinion tho.

    Well, we talked about lv 20 since it's already a mark with chars' promotion. The problem with the level range 20-50/60 is this: they start to use BOH and other quite expensive eq, but:
    • To buy all 5 blessings is DANGEROUS and best part of newcomers do not buy premium time at once
    • AOL = 50k . A FAIR newcomer isn't able to earn enough money to buy eq and AOL in this level range.



    @ Mandrake:

    Well, if now pvp death penatly is extermally low (15% of level and 20k?), I guess we can come back to the system what players liked the most - 2 unj for one player again

    Look at assisted kills thread, please.


    Now? Boring, boring, boring. I can leave depot on my noob chars 100% sure noone atack me. Every day looks the same.

    Indeed. Noobchars should be left alone by HLs, and viceversa. They aren't meant to fight nor to interfere.


    Aleppe
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    14.09.2010 12:19:22
    Edited by Aleppe
    on 14.09.2010 12:20:40
    Quote Post #28467894

     
    Mazarak

    Inhabitant of Solera
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 131

    One of the Prophecy

    Posts: 144


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 14.09.2010 12:19:22:
    > @ Dal'iya:
    >
    > Now? Boring, boring, boring. I can leave depot on
    > my noob chars 100% sure noone atack me. Every day
    > looks the same.

    >
    > Indeed. Noobchars should be left alone by HLs, and
    > viceversa. They aren't meant to fight nor to
    > interfere.
    >
    >
    > Aleppe

    Please inform as to which rule outlines that HLs should 'leave lower levels alone' and viceversa? This is an mmorpg which really makes that statement stupid. This game would be nothing without player interaction; as with any other mmorpg.

    What all this is doing is making Tibia too 'safe'. It's taking away the thrill of the game. Sure, make changes to the way stacks work, or being able to get out of traps. But changes such as this pvp blessing, and the 'fair fight' rules are just making it all too easy.
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    14.09.2010 13:02:17
    Quote Post #28468055

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    []Please inform as to which rule outlines that HLs should 'leave lower levels alone' and viceversa? This is an mmorpg which really makes that statement stupid.

    It's not a rule, but pure common sense: for which reason a HL char should annoy a noobchar and why a noobchar should be able to interfere in HL pvp combats?


    But changes such as this pvp blessing, and the 'fair fight' rules are just making it all too easy.

    Griefers are just few units: best part of newcomers and pvpers are players wanting to have fun, nothing else. So if to make newcomers come we'll have to see you going away, well, that's fair enough.


    Aleppe
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    14.09.2010 13:07:46
    Quote Post #28468074

     
    Mazarak

    Inhabitant of Solera
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 131

    One of the Prophecy

    Posts: 144


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 14.09.2010 13:07:46:
    > []Please inform as to which rule outlines that HLs
    > should 'leave lower levels alone' and viceversa? This
    > is an mmorpg which really makes that statement
    > stupid.
    >
    > It's not a rule, but pure common sense: for which
    > reason a HL char should annoy a noobchar and why a
    > noobchar should be able to interfere in HL pvp
    > combats?
    >
    >
    > But changes such as this pvp blessing, and the
    > 'fair fight' rules are just making it all too
    > easy.

    >
    > Griefers are just few units: best part of newcomers
    > and pvpers are players wanting to have fun, nothing
    > else. So if to make newcomers come we'll have to see
    > you going away, well, that's fair enough.
    >
    >
    > Aleppe

    Great idea! Let's make the people who have been supporting this game for years quit so we can get a few new fresh faces who might not even keep playing! Like I said, I want to have fun. But a huge part of mine, and a lot of other pvper's fun is the amount lost when dying. It adds incentive to stay alive and to kill other people. I don't understand why you cannot grasp that simple concept. Without a loss people will not care about dying, making pvp boring.

    @ your statement about common sense: it's nothing to do with common sense. Most mmorpg's are a constant race to best yourself over someone else; whether it be in regards to levels, money, power, finishing a quest before another, etc. Higher levels 'annoying' lower level characters comes along with that and it IS a part of every mmorpg out there. If you're in the position of a lower level, you get annoyed, deal with it, move on, then become better so you can give that high level what he deserves
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    14.09.2010 13:32:38
    Quote Post #28468216

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Great idea! Let's make the people who have been supporting this game for years quit so we can get a few new fresh faces who might not even keep playing!

    Your statement implies that all old players are aggressive/very aggressive ones.
    Well, I've a new for you: you're mistaken.


    Like I said, I want to have fun. But a huge part of mine, and a lot of other pvper's fun is the amount lost when dying. It adds incentive to stay alive and to kill other people. I don't understand why you cannot grasp that simple concept. Without a loss people will not care about dying, making pvp boring.

    This is the usual argument used by griefers to justify their attitude: too bad that when it comes to talk about a "boring game" they don't consider all those hundreds of chars forced to stay in pz.


    Higher levels 'annoying' lower level characters comes along with that and it IS a part of every mmorpg out there.

    HLs will still be able to annoy them, but not to limit their levels/month, for example. Does it sound familiar to you?


    Aleppe
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    14.09.2010 13:47:06
    Quote Post #28468302

     
    Mazarak

    Inhabitant of Solera
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 131

    One of the Prophecy

    Posts: 144


    Please tell me when you stated anything previously regarding aggressive/very aggressive players and how this relates to my statement at all? And to be honest, my opinion represents a large portion of the Tibian population.

    I'm actually laughing at the moment about considering those chars forced to stay in pz. I currently AM one of those chars. Your argument holds no grounds. The excitement with pvp goes hand in hand with the amount of exp and money/items lost when dying. I hate repeating myself but that fact just doesn't seem to sink in.

    And please, tell me what HL would waste an amount of unjusts that limits a low levels exp? I die on a low level and it might take me 1-2hrs to get it back. A high level will not take a red or black skull (which would be needed to 'limit' their levels/month) to make it actually hurt the lower level. And, if they do, then clearly the lower level has aggravated the high level enough to do so and deserves it.

    I've just read the other threads as well, and as far as I can see you have not made a single post of criticism for any of these changes. Methinks you are crawling just a little bit too much. Bit of brown on your nose?
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    14.09.2010 14:10:20
    Quote Post #28468416

     
    Mandarke

    Inhabitant of Premia
    Profession: Royal Paladin
    Level: 169

    Bemused of the Awareness

    Posts: 745


    @Aleppe
    I didn't say that my noob chars should be atacked by HLs. He is not atacked by anyone, espiesially lower levels, like mine.
    14.09.2010 14:10:41
    Quote Post #28468418

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Great idea! Let's make the people who have been supporting this game for years quit so we can get a few new fresh faces who might not even keep playing!

    Your statement implies that all old players are aggressive/very aggressive ones.
    Well, I've a new for you: you're mistaken.

    Please tell me when you stated anything previously regarding aggressive/very aggressive players and how this relates to my statement at all?

    You're complaining against pvp death aftermaths being too cheap, hence you would like harsher punishments. Consideing that you're talking about old players, we can assume that they have leveled their chars to HL ranges, hence the only way to make somebody suffer would be while dealing with lower ranges or to have enough characters to harass even a HL player and that means to be aggressive, if it happens frequently. Given that you're stating that these changes would harm your game experience, we can assume that you're used to deal with lower ranges or that you have enough chars not to care about 20 unjusts x frag rule, hence that you belong to those aggressive players.


    And to be honest, my opinion represents a large portion of the Tibian population

    If it was the case, we would have crowed regular servers. Otherwise, look the case, best part of them are empty, and best part who still plays there are cheaters and griefers while Rookgaards are empty.


    I'm actually laughing at the moment about considering those chars forced to stay in pz. I currently AM one of those chars.

    You laugh, many others left or went to optional pvp: have we to keep things like they are to see you laughing or what?


    And please, tell me what HL would waste an amount of unjusts that limits a low levels exp?

    FAIR newcomers have limited resources. Players with HL chars have a lot of resources to be used by their noobchars (without talking about cheaters).


    I've just read the other threads as well, and as far as I can see you have not made a single post of criticism for any of these changes. Methinks you are crawling just a little bit too much. Bit of brown on your nose?

    Just look at the last page of the swaps thread and you'll see just a part of my rants in the Focus Group discussion. Here we're writing in a board meant to host the feedback about a Test Server based on features which have been discussed (even with harsh manners sometimes) by the Fous Group (hence even by me) since 4 months so far.


    Aleppe
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    14.09.2010 14:32:01
    Edited by Aleppe
    on 14.09.2010 14:33:45
    Quote Post #28468506

     
    Mathenus

    Inhabitant of Nebula
    Profession: Elite Knight
    Level: 123

    Posts: 375


    Aleppe is really, really, REALLY annoying...
    and he doesn't get tired of it
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    14.09.2010 14:40:18
    Quote Post #28468546

     
    Mazarak

    Inhabitant of Solera
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 131

    One of the Prophecy

    Posts: 144


    Ok, so now all you're trying to do is de-base my arguments by proving inconsequential things wrong and assuming knowledge. Not once have you referred to the fact that making pvp deaths cheap will take the fun out of pvp and make it too much like an OT. It'll make the pvp facet of Tibia boring. There is no two ways about it.

    That is really what this thread/argument is about and right now I'm too tired to deal with all this other flowery rubbish you're carrying on with.

    And by the way, I'm not saying CiP shouldn't try things like the new swapping feature etc, but the pvp blessing and fair fight rules just are not a step in the right direction.
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    14.09.2010 14:42:08
    Quote Post #28468558

     
    Craban
    Product Manager

    Inhabitant of Arcania
    Profession: None
    Level: 4

    Posts: 4103


    Originally posted by Mazarak on 14.09.2010 14:42:08:
    > Ok, so now all you're trying to do is de-base my
    > arguments by proving inconsequential things wrong and
    > assuming knowledge. Not once have you referred to the
    > fact that making pvp deaths cheap will take the fun
    > out of pvp and make it too much like an OT. It'll
    > make the pvp facet of Tibia boring. There is no two
    > ways about it.
    >
    > That is really what this thread/argument is about and
    > right now I'm too tired to deal with all this other
    > flowery rubbish you're carrying on with.
    >
    > And by the way, I'm not saying CiP shouldn't try
    > things like the new swapping feature etc, but the pvp
    > blessing and fair fight rules just are not a step in
    > the right direction.

    I'll give you my view on this: I agree that for those who perform PvP for fun, so those who like a thrill and a challenge, it should still be fun.

    Now, I hope I was able to present our view on the different playing styles on Open PvP servers in the featured article. Now, how does this swapping thing actually relate to the views in that article?

    The point about swapping is that:

    a) It adds another element to PvP, namely another choice you have. Basically, you have to decide for each enemy in a battle whether you want to use swapping against him or attack him first.

    b) You need additional training in using this feature to your best advantage while, as far as the test has shown now, there are really no big ways to create new abuse of this feature.

    Now the point that you have raised is much more about the FFRs and the PvP blessing. The point there, which is directed towards your comment on PvP being fun, is:

    If you want PvP to be fun for you and if you define that fun by the death penalty of either yourself or your victim, then you can still have exactly what you have now. All you have to do is engage in fights where you are not part of the bigger team / the higher levels. Look for a fair fight against balanced levelled opponents, then your definition of fun will stay exactly the same.

    And after all, to be fun, PvP has to be a challenge, right? And what kind of challenge is it for a level 130+ to fight against a level 50? Don't you agree?
    ________________
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    A very good approach on how to play Tibia WITH others rather than AGAINST!
    14.09.2010 14:59:40
    Edited by Craban
    on 14.09.2010 15:01:06
    Quote Post #28468662

     
    Mathenus

    Inhabitant of Nebula
    Profession: Elite Knight
    Level: 123

    Posts: 375


    Originally posted by Craban on 14.09.2010 14:59:40:
    > Originally posted by Mazarak on 14.09.2010
    > 14:42:08
    :
    > > Ok, so now all you're trying to do is de-base my
    > > arguments by proving inconsequential things wrong
    > and
    > > assuming knowledge. Not once have you referred to
    > the
    > > fact that making pvp deaths cheap will take the
    > fun
    > > out of pvp and make it too much like an OT. It'll
    > > make the pvp facet of Tibia boring. There is no
    > two
    > > ways about it.
    > >
    > > That is really what this thread/argument is about
    > and
    > > right now I'm too tired to deal with all this
    > other
    > > flowery rubbish you're carrying on with.
    > >
    > > And by the way, I'm not saying CiP shouldn't try
    > > things like the new swapping feature etc, but the
    > pvp
    > > blessing and fair fight rules just are not a step
    > in
    > > the right direction.
    >
    > I'll give you my view on this: I agree that for those
    > who perform PvP for fun, so those who like a thrill
    > and a challenge, it should still be fun.
    >
    > Now, I hope I was able to present our view on the
    > different playing styles on Open PvP servers in the
    > featured article. Now, how does this swapping thing
    > actually relate to the views in that article?
    >
    > The point about swapping is that:
    >
    > a) It adds another element to PvP, namely another
    > choice you have. Basically, you have to decide for
    > each enemy in a battle whether you want to use
    > swapping against him or attack him first.
    >
    > b) You need additional training in using this feature
    > to your best advantage while, as far as the test has
    > shown now, there are really no big ways to create new
    > abuse of this feature.
    >
    > Now the point that you have raised is much more about
    > the FFRs and the PvP blessing. The point there, which
    > is directed towards your comment on PvP being fun,
    > is:
    >
    > If you want PvP to be fun for you and if you define
    > that fun by the death penalty of either yourself or
    > your victim, then you can still have exactly what you
    > have now. All you have to do is engage in fights
    > where you are not part of the bigger team / the
    > higher levels. Look for a fair fight against balanced
    > levelled opponents, then your definition of fun will
    > stay exactly the same.


    and you just failed

    you crushed the PvP

    we won't play anymore :/

    I got tired of your tries without caring for what the majority says
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    14.09.2010 15:01:25
    Quote Post #28468671

     
    Craban
    Product Manager

    Inhabitant of Arcania
    Profession: None
    Level: 4

    Posts: 4103


    Originally posted by Mathenus on 14.09.2010 15:01:25:
    > Originally posted by Craban on 14.09.2010
    > 14:59:40
    :
    > > Originally posted by Mazarak on 14.09.2010
    > > 14:42:08
    :
    > > > Ok, so now all you're trying to do is de-base my
    > > > arguments by proving inconsequential things
    > wrong
    > > and
    > > > assuming knowledge. Not once have you referred
    > to
    > > the
    > > > fact that making pvp deaths cheap will take the
    > > fun
    > > > out of pvp and make it too much like an OT.
    > It'll
    > > > make the pvp facet of Tibia boring. There is no
    > > two
    > > > ways about it.
    > > >
    > > > That is really what this thread/argument is
    > about
    > > and
    > > > right now I'm too tired to deal with all this
    > > other
    > > > flowery rubbish you're carrying on with.
    > > >
    > > > And by the way, I'm not saying CiP shouldn't try
    > > > things like the new swapping feature etc, but
    > the
    > > pvp
    > > > blessing and fair fight rules just are not a
    > step
    > > in
    > > > the right direction.
    > >
    > > I'll give you my view on this: I agree that for
    > those
    > > who perform PvP for fun, so those who like a
    > thrill
    > > and a challenge, it should still be fun.
    > >
    > > Now, I hope I was able to present our view on the
    > > different playing styles on Open PvP servers in
    > the
    > > featured article. Now, how does this swapping
    > thing
    > > actually relate to the views in that article?
    > >
    > > The point about swapping is that:
    > >
    > > a) It adds another element to PvP, namely another
    > > choice you have. Basically, you have to decide for
    > > each enemy in a battle whether you want to use
    > > swapping against him or attack him first.
    > >
    > > b) You need additional training in using this
    > feature
    > > to your best advantage while, as far as the test
    > has
    > > shown now, there are really no big ways to create
    > new
    > > abuse of this feature.
    > >
    > > Now the point that you have raised is much more
    > about
    > > the FFRs and the PvP blessing. The point there,
    > which
    > > is directed towards your comment on PvP being fun,
    > > is:
    > >
    > > If you want PvP to be fun for you and if you
    > define
    > > that fun by the death penalty of either yourself
    > or
    > > your victim, then you can still have exactly what
    > you
    > > have now. All you have to do is engage in fights
    > > where you are not part of the bigger team / the
    > > higher levels. Look for a fair fight against
    > balanced
    > > levelled opponents, then your definition of fun
    > will
    > > stay exactly the same.
    >
    >
    > and you just failed
    >
    > you crushed the PvP
    >
    > we won't play anymore :/
    >
    > I got tired of your tries without caring for what the
    > majority says

    Hmm, interesting, I was just trying to exchange arguments with you on the topic, yet as soon as I start to expand on your own argument of fun in PvP, all you do is cry "epic fail" and run away.

    See, this is one of the reasons why the player group that argues like you do is not heard, cause there really is nothing to hear from you except hot air. As soon as someone even tries to smell your argument a little, it poofs as you blow it away with another of your cries.

    Come back when you are ready to argue, as long as you just shout failure, your posts cannot change anything.
    ________________
    I'm not a man of too many faces,
    The mask I wear is one.

    (Sting)
    A very good approach on how to play Tibia WITH others rather than AGAINST!
    14.09.2010 15:06:36
    Quote Post #28468696

     
    Liyn

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 101

    Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

    Posts: 874


    Originally posted by Craban on 14.09.2010 14:59:40:


    > And after all, to be fun, PvP has to be a challenge,
    > right? And what kind of challenge is it for a level
    > 130+ to fight against a level 50? Don't you agree?

    It is a challange to kill a level 50 being level 130, or even higher. Unless the 50 level is PZ locked or a noob, of course. Or very far from any PZ so he has not enough pots to survive. Yet even if he succeeds, the 50 level loses 20% and 6k.


    Liyn
    14.09.2010 15:08:19
    Edited by Liyn
    on 14.09.2010 15:10:30
    Quote Post #28468709

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Originally posted by Mathenus on 14.09.2010 14:40:18:
    > Aleppe is really, really, REALLY annoying...
    > and he doesn't get tired of it

    This is what my co-workers wrote to present me to the last newcomer :

    when you're done, tired like a camel after 40 days of desert carrying a heavy burden, seeing strange things appearing in front of you like it happens when you've seen the end of 2 bottles of whiskey and you wouldn't care even if somebody would tell you that you won last multi-million lottery, he will tell you that you've done nothing special and that's time to start to do things seriously. The problem is that he did all that with, and sometimes better, than you.


    @ Mazarak:

    Not once have you referred to the fact that making pvp deaths cheap will take the fun out of pvp and make it too much like an OT

    I've repeated almost infinite times during the whole Focus Group discussion that PVP death penalties have to stay into acceptable ranges to not harm the PVP environment appeal. This said, given that PVM deaths occur, on average, at least 3-5 times less than PVP ones, nothing strange to set for the latters cheaper aftermaths.

    Moreover, when it came to talk about the 20 unjusts, we even started to talk about FURTHER reductions either FFR or repeated deaths based.

    When it comes to tune something, one needs to keep into consideration the average, not the extreme: you belong to one extreme, that's why you feel harmed by the Twist of Fate and by FFRs.

    All this said, if you like to risk, nothing prevents you to go around without AOL, blessings and Twist of fate, or do you like just your victims losses?


    Aleppe
    ________________
    INFLICTING PAIN ON GRIEFERS
    PVP BLESSING
    LIMIT CONTAINERS CAP!
    §OLD ACCOUNTS§ Ancients power
    14.09.2010 15:10:22
    Edited by Aleppe
    on 14.09.2010 15:16:55
    Quote Post #28468716

     

    Página 6:

    Mathenus

    Inhabitant of Nebula
    Profession: Elite Knight
    Level: 123

    Posts: 375


    Originally posted by Craban on 14.09.2010 15:06:36:
    > Originally posted by Mathenus on 14.09.2010
    > 15:01:25
    :
    > > Originally posted by Craban on 14.09.2010
    > > 14:59:40
    :
    > > > Originally posted by Mazarak on 14.09.2010
    > > > 14:42:08
    :
    > > > > Ok, so now all you're trying to do is de-base
    > my
    > > > > arguments by proving inconsequential things
    > > wrong
    > > > and
    > > > > assuming knowledge. Not once have you referred
    > > to
    > > > the
    > > > > fact that making pvp deaths cheap will take
    > the
    > > > fun
    > > > > out of pvp and make it too much like an OT.
    > > It'll
    > > > > make the pvp facet of Tibia boring. There is
    > no
    > > > two
    > > > > ways about it.
    > > > >
    > > > > That is really what this thread/argument is
    > > about
    > > > and
    > > > > right now I'm too tired to deal with all this
    > > > other
    > > > > flowery rubbish you're carrying on with.
    > > > >
    > > > > And by the way, I'm not saying CiP shouldn't
    > try
    > > > > things like the new swapping feature etc, but
    > > the
    > > > pvp
    > > > > blessing and fair fight rules just are not a
    > > step
    > > > in
    > > > > the right direction.
    > > >
    > > > I'll give you my view on this: I agree that for
    > > those
    > > > who perform PvP for fun, so those who like a
    > > thrill
    > > > and a challenge, it should still be fun.
    > > >
    > > > Now, I hope I was able to present our view on
    > the
    > > > different playing styles on Open PvP servers in
    > > the
    > > > featured article. Now, how does this swapping
    > > thing
    > > > actually relate to the views in that article?
    > > >
    > > > The point about swapping is that:
    > > >
    > > > a) It adds another element to PvP, namely
    > another
    > > > choice you have. Basically, you have to decide
    > for
    > > > each enemy in a battle whether you want to use
    > > > swapping against him or attack him first.
    > > >
    > > > b) You need additional training in using this
    > > feature
    > > > to your best advantage while, as far as the test
    > > has
    > > > shown now, there are really no big ways to
    > create
    > > new
    > > > abuse of this feature.
    > > >
    > > > Now the point that you have raised is much more
    > > about
    > > > the FFRs and the PvP blessing. The point there,
    > > which
    > > > is directed towards your comment on PvP being
    > fun,
    > > > is:
    > > >
    > > > If you want PvP to be fun for you and if you
    > > define
    > > > that fun by the death penalty of either yourself
    > > or
    > > > your victim, then you can still have exactly
    > what
    > > you
    > > > have now. All you have to do is engage in fights
    > > > where you are not part of the bigger team / the
    > > > higher levels. Look for a fair fight against
    > > balanced
    > > > levelled opponents, then your definition of fun
    > > will
    > > > stay exactly the same.
    > >
    > >
    > > and you just failed
    > >
    > > you crushed the PvP
    > >
    > > we won't play anymore :/
    > >
    > > I got tired of your tries without caring for what
    > the
    > > majority says
    >
    > Hmm, interesting, I was just trying to exchange
    > arguments with you on the topic, yet as soon as I
    > start to expand on your own argument of fun in PvP,
    > all you do is cry "epic fail" and run away.
    >
    > See, this is one of the reasons why the player group
    > that argues like you do is not heard, cause there
    > really is nothing to hear from you except hot air. As
    > soon as someone even tries to smell your argument a
    > little, it poofs as you blow it away with another of
    > your cries.
    >
    > Come back when you are ready to argue, as long as you
    > just shout failure, your posts cannot change
    > anything.


    Actually I already left a lot of arguments here, and I don't have time now because I'm late for work and spending MORE time on your game... but if you want me to come back with them latter, ok, I'll bring you back to them at night

    ps: now I gotta go work, have fun ruining our fun
    ________________
    /Thaigon
    Made in Brasil.
    14.09.2010 15:11:59
    Edited by Mathenus
    on 14.09.2010 15:12:35
    Quote Post #28468722

     
    Liyn

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 101

    Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

    Posts: 874
    Post Some stats.

    Okay, let's bring some arguments on why this feature isn't the best one. Let's take a level 50EK, fully blessed, hunting, let's say dragons in Edron Dragon Lair.
    Now there is a guy who wants to kill him, some level 150. The level 50 gets attacked and, healing around 600 per one attack turn, he has a great chance to make it to depot. He will now have two options:

    • run away - he wastes, say, around 100 strong health potions: the way is long and the high level tries to slow him down. The guy will spend 10k in potions, and a lot of time, since he will wait in depot till the HL is gone, let's say around an hour.
    • die - he will waste 6k for the blessing and around 11341 exp points (fully blessed+promoted - according to tibiaML, 33% cause of level difference), so to get it back he needs ~16 dragons - 30 minutes.

    Are we supposed to suicide now, every time we get attacked on hunting ground? Even if we have a fair chance to survive?


    Liyn
    ________________
    18:27 Liyn [50]: ive just got beggar outfit
    18:27 Liyn [50]: and i will marry Simon the Beggar!
    18:28 Reeve [74]: level?
    14.09.2010 17:11:18
    Quote Post #28469541

     
    Myst Sain

    Inhabitant of Antica
    Profession: Royal Paladin
    Level: 50

    Posts: 269


    Well, you've talked just about one side of the medal: what if that lv 150 makes that lv 50 waste 9k of supplies and then he leaves without taking the unjust?
    Resources draining is one of the most effective tactics to keep people in PZ , more if joined with systematic level growing control: is it a new for you?
    ________________
    20:48 You see a grave. You read: God is dead. Nietzsche
    20:49 You see a grave. You read: Nietzsche is dead. God

    14.09.2010 17:24:26
    Quote Post #28469664

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    @Liyn,

    What you outlined is how the "bullies" use to be able to abuse people, because they could cause them a lot of harm, and keep them from hunting.

    If you were that 150, and I was the 50, here is how it would go now:

    You come to spawn, "leave or die", or just simply attack me because you feel oh so powerful.

    I am not going to run to depot, I will fight back. So now you have to choose, waste that frag and your supplies, or YOU have to run.

    Say you kill me, ok, that's fine, I buy new pvp blessing and I am right back at that spawn hunting again.

    You want to attack me again, and waste another frag?
    Fine, go for it.
    One more time and you are red skull. Then my friends can come and drop you, where YOU will have to buy all new blessings, and YOU will lose all your eq.

    Seems to me these features are great and will do a lot to reduce the abuse that has been going on for far too long!

    The pvp system is for occasional pvp fights, not constant fighting. And if a high level wants to push around a low level, well now it carries some consequences, which is how things should be.

    So your example is just one that shows why these changes are justified and needed. Thanks.
    14.09.2010 17:30:53
    Quote Post #28469742

     
    Elio Kade

    Inhabitant of Fortera
    Profession: Royal Paladin
    Level: 225

    Warrior of the Fuerzas Especiales Ginyu

    Posts: 1832


    Originally posted by Myst Sain on 14.09.2010 17:24:26:
    > Well, you've talked just about one side of the medal:
    > what if that lv 150 makes that lv 50 waste 9k of
    > supplies and then he leaves without taking the
    > unjust?
    > Resources draining is one of the most effective
    > tactics to keep people in PZ , more if joined with
    > systematic level growing control: is it a new for
    > you?

    What are u talking about? its effective if u make them waste AND kill them, its not hard to make money these days. Unless your hunted and you cant leave PZ.
    But with the 20 Unjust and war system thats not a problem either...
    ________________
    Think i care?

    00:12 Tatox Vela [158]: i wanna kill piinkrosse shes got more moustache than me and iam mexican
    14.09.2010 17:31:04
    Edited by Elio Kade
    on 14.09.2010 17:32:04
    Quote Post #28469746

     
    Elio Kade

    Inhabitant of Fortera
    Profession: Royal Paladin
    Level: 225

    Warrior of the Fuerzas Especiales Ginyu

    Posts: 1832


    Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 14.09.2010 17:30:53:
    > @Liyn,
    >
    > What you outlined is how the "bullies" use to be able
    > to abuse people, because they could cause them a lot
    > of harm, and keep them from hunting.
    >
    > If you were that 150, and I was the 50, here is how
    > it would go now:
    >
    > You come to spawn, "leave or die", or just simply
    > attack me because you feel oh so powerful.
    >
    > I am not going to run to depot, I will fight back.
    > So now you have to choose, waste that frag and your
    > supplies, or YOU have to run.
    >
    > Say you kill me, ok, that's fine, I buy new pvp
    > blessing and I am right back at that spawn hunting
    > again.
    >
    > You want to attack me again, and waste another frag?
    > Fine, go for it.
    > One more time and you are red skull. Then my friends
    > can come and drop you, where YOU will have to buy all
    > new blessings, and YOU will lose all your eq.
    >
    > Seems to me these features are great and will do a
    > lot to reduce the abuse that has been going on for
    > far too long!
    >
    > The pvp system is for occasional pvp fights, not
    > constant fighting. And if a high level wants to push
    > around a low level, well now it carries some
    > consequences, which is how things should be.
    >
    > So your example is just one that shows why these
    > changes are justified and needed. Thanks.

    So this is how it will go after the update then, I wil go into the cave and i see a lvl 50 hunting.
    Ill just ignore him and start hunting because he cant kill monsters as fast as me.
    ________________
    Think i care?

    00:12 Tatox Vela [158]: i wanna kill piinkrosse shes got more moustache than me and iam mexican
    14.09.2010 17:35:07
    Quote Post #28469783

     
    Magus Firefly

    Inhabitant of Refugia
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 225

    Smilodon of the Sixth Extinction

    Posts: 5151


    Hi

    @ Mathenus:

    The problem is there are several very different groups playing in open pvp servers:

    - The griefer groups whos main fun is to destroy that for others
    - The pvp/war lovers who love to regularly fight challenging pvp fights
    - The peaceful players who only very rarely think about killing any other player (for instance to take revenge, kill a thief..)

    The first group and their wishes is clearly ignored in all featurs (because CIPSOFT has no interest in players who want to stop others paying for their game obviously).

    Both other groups should find a "home" in open pvp servers.

    Only the extremes of both remaining groups are in the wrong server (should either go to optional or to hardcore pvp). So the big challenge is to have open pvp servers as a nice place for such different playing styles.

    Now comes the example of the pvp blessings and fair fight rules:

    For the real war/pvp lovers its too low, for the very peaceful players mabe still too high.

    The point is only that all players should be able to keep playing without getting bankrupt (even if hunted).

    The problem is that its impossible to get a good value for both groups at the test server. The only real test is at normal servers!

    So all who play there should go and ask friends belonging to both groups! If the peaceful players are all satisfied and the pvp lovers bored its either time to create a new server for them or increase the costs carefully to see if its still good enough for the peaceful players...

    Dont forget:
    The main patch for pvp/war lovers will be the following one, not this one! Several nice features for wars will come. The main agreement in the focus group was to get the majority of pvp fights in the war system (which needs many improvements and adjustements of course).
    ________________
    Solve the depot trashing problem
    14.09.2010 17:37:37
    Quote Post #28469813

     
    Liyn

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 101

    Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

    Posts: 874


    Originally posted by Myst Sain on 14.09.2010 17:24:26:
    > Well, you've talked just about one side of the medal:
    > what if that lv 150 makes that lv 50 waste 9k of
    > supplies and then he leaves without taking the
    > unjust?

    Exactly, 100% right. I was talking about >killing< someone, but yes, the level 50 is forced to chose whether it's worthy healing and running away with a risk of all: dying after wasting many supplies, surviving but losing more than dying and, as you mentioned, wasting (probably) more than death and being left by the killer. All the choices indicate, though, that the running away brings probability of losing more than dying.

    > Resources draining is one of the most effective
    > tactics to keep people in PZ , more if joined with
    > systematic level growing control: is it a new for
    > you?

    Oke, so let's all suicide to stop power abuse! Wow, come on, Power Abuse is just one part of PvP. You don't need to introduce ridiculously cheap deaths to stop PA, cause it hurts the whole rest. I wasn't talking about some rampant situation on Elera or what not, where 40+ levels shouldn't leave PZ. I was talking about a casual situation, for example on Amera, where a level 150, for some reason (he killed his friend/ stole loot etc), wants to kill the 50EK.

    @Alecto, as said before(^) I'm not talking about Power Abuse. Find another argument.

    Liyn
    ________________
    18:27 Liyn [50]: ive just got beggar outfit
    18:27 Liyn [50]: and i will marry Simon the Beggar!
    18:28 Reeve [74]: level?
    14.09.2010 17:45:02
    Quote Post #28469893

     
    Ewix

    Inhabitant of Kyra
    Profession: Druid
    Level: 167

    Posts: 356


    There are different groups of players playing Tibia, I am part of the group who is playing (used to play in my case) for the wars. I quited because of the recent updates that in my opinion ruined pvp. Anyway I still read forums, talk to friends who are still playing hoping that you someday will listen to the people who played this game for what i think made it speciall, the pvp. I liked that it took time to take lvls and you would lose them in a minut. The new blessing and swapping will ruin yet another part of the old pvp.

    Im sure these updates are just fine if you dont like wars and you didn't use to play when you could fight a real war, when the wars were fought in huge battles where over 100 players were fighting. But for the people who played for the wars you destroyed the game. For the game to have asmuch people as possible you need to please both these groups. And as i see it the only way to do it is to make a new/new servers with the OLD pvp system, how old? atlest some client before the 20 unjust system.
    14.09.2010 17:50:43
    Quote Post #28469941

     
    Myst Sain

    Inhabitant of Antica
    Profession: Royal Paladin
    Level: 50

    Posts: 269


    Originally posted by Liyn on 14.09.2010 17:45:02:
    > Power Abuse is just one part of PvP.


    ________________
    20:48 You see a grave. You read: God is dead. Nietzsche
    20:49 You see a grave. You read: Nietzsche is dead. God

    14.09.2010 17:55:52
    Quote Post #28469993

     
    Liyn

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 101

    Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

    Posts: 874


    Originally posted by Myst Sain on 14.09.2010 17:55:52:
    > Originally posted by Liyn on 14.09.2010
    > 17:45:02
    :
    > > Power Abuse is just one part of PvP.
    >
    >

    Would you rather think of Power abuse or casual pvp, if you were, within 101 levels and 4 years of playing on several characters once power abused outta spawn (and your blocker said no), paid 0 gp to anyone while having numerous reasons to kill someone not Power Abusing him? Kaz trappers for a good example? I know that PA is rampant on some servers but please let me have my own opinion based on my own experience. And for me PA is not more important than casual killing bad guys. Eliminate PA- yes; leave the rest as it is. BTW, what's the reason of such a great change: Autumn patch 2009 made PA legal, and now they want to fight with it? Not that I disagree of course, it just seems weird.

    Liyn
    ________________
    18:27 Liyn [50]: ive just got beggar outfit
    18:27 Liyn [50]: and i will marry Simon the Beggar!
    18:28 Reeve [74]: level?
    14.09.2010 18:08:47
    Quote Post #28470104

     
    Magus Firefly

    Inhabitant of Refugia
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 225

    Smilodon of the Sixth Extinction

    Posts: 5151


    Hi

    Originally posted by Elio Kade on 14.09.2010 17:35:07:
    > Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 14.09.2010
    > 17:30:53
    :
    > > @Liyn,
    > >
    > > What you outlined is how the "bullies" use to be
    > able
    > > to abuse people, because they could cause them a
    > lot
    > > of harm, and keep them from hunting.
    > >
    > > If you were that 150, and I was the 50, here is
    > how
    > > it would go now:
    > >
    > > You come to spawn, "leave or die", or just simply
    > > attack me because you feel oh so powerful.
    > >
    > > I am not going to run to depot, I will fight back.
    >
    > > So now you have to choose, waste that frag and
    > your
    > > supplies, or YOU have to run.
    > >
    > > Say you kill me, ok, that's fine, I buy new pvp
    > > blessing and I am right back at that spawn hunting
    > > again.
    > >
    > > You want to attack me again, and waste another
    > frag?
    > > Fine, go for it.
    > > One more time and you are red skull. Then my
    > friends
    > > can come and drop you, where YOU will have to buy
    > all
    > > new blessings, and YOU will lose all your eq.
    > >
    > > Seems to me these features are great and will do a
    > > lot to reduce the abuse that has been going on for
    > > far too long!
    > >
    > > The pvp system is for occasional pvp fights, not
    > > constant fighting. And if a high level wants to
    > push
    > > around a low level, well now it carries some
    > > consequences, which is how things should be.
    > >
    > > So your example is just one that shows why these
    > > changes are justified and needed. Thanks.
    >
    > So this is how it will go after the update then, I
    > wil go into the cave and i see a lvl 50 hunting.
    > Ill just ignore him and start hunting because he cant
    > kill monsters as fast as me.

    After this patch the low level has more options then now. He can think about staying and hunt like he wants, does not need to pay any boh or whatever, can even think about suiciding to get you a skull (even red skull if you lack of pvp knowledge )

    You can either simple hunt and hope he leaves seeing he does not get much experience, start luring all creatures at him, mabe try to finish him when you think you make less then the needed 50% damage to avoid a frag. Or just kill him and hope he will leave next time he sees you around (makes only sense if you regularly hunt in this area of course).

    Additionally mainly knights have the problem to hunt in areas where often by far lower level mages and paladins hunt. I never see any level 50 hunting in areas where I hunt.

    So for me this problem should not be discussed here but in the hopefully soon coming vocation balance discussions.

    The main vision of CIPSOFT is to reduce power abusing by game design, making all interference (and work/money for them) unnecessary. Thats what they do now with the pvp blessings/fair fight rules and swapping: Less people complaining that they are hunted and cant do anything and less need for CIPSOFT to waste precious CM time to solve such problems.
    ________________
    Solve the depot trashing problem
    14.09.2010 18:12:12
    Quote Post #28470127

     
    Liyn

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 101

    Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

    Posts: 874


    Originally posted by Magus Firefly on 14.09.2010 18:12:12:

    > > So this is how it will go after the update then, I
    > > wil go into the cave and i see a lvl 50 hunting.
    > > Ill just ignore him and start hunting because he
    > cant
    > > kill monsters as fast as me.
    >

    > You can either simple hunt and hope he leaves seeing
    > he does not get much experience, start luring all
    > creatures at him, mabe try to finish him when you
    > think you make less then the needed 50% damage to
    > avoid a frag. Or just kill him and hope he will leave
    > next time he sees you around (makes only sense if you
    > regularly hunt in this area of course).


    = how to POWER ABUSE the lvl 50 outta spawn without saying 'leave now'. Nice nice.

    BTW, welcome the most primitive way of killing others - luring! But it's actually true. People, seeing that killing directly does very little harm while dying to monsters makes the victims waste a lot, they will start with ridiculous method, to either kill or power abuse someone out of the cave. Interesting.

    Liyn
    ________________
    18:27 Liyn [50]: ive just got beggar outfit
    18:27 Liyn [50]: and i will marry Simon the Beggar!
    18:28 Reeve [74]: level?
    14.09.2010 18:22:23
    Quote Post #28470196

     
    Magus Firefly

    Inhabitant of Refugia
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 225

    Smilodon of the Sixth Extinction

    Posts: 5151


    Hi

    Originally posted by Liyn on 14.09.2010 18:22:23:
    ....
    >
    > = how to POWER ABUSE the lvl 50 outta spawn without
    > saying 'leave now'. Nice nice.
    >
    > BTW, welcome the most primitive way of killing others
    > - luring! But it's actually true. People, seeing that
    > killing directly does very little harm while dying to
    > monsters makes the victims waste a lot, they will
    > start with ridiculous method, to either kill or power
    > abuse someone out of the cave. Interesting.
    >
    > Liyn

    All your points are fully true. And I wrote about this point somewhere at the beginning of the focus group discussions.

    Luring will be the "best" possibilty to hurt someone, and to power abuse someone out of a spawn. People will learn that fast.

    Like I wrote above:

    The main point here must be to balance spawns for levels (or more clearly to heavily improve knights chance to profit against stronger creatures).

    So my vision is that only those of the "right" level or very skilled fighters of lower and "bad" fighters of higher level will be on "your" hunting ground.

    This means if you want to power abuse someone off you fight against an equal opponent making the luring a good challenge for both.

    We are of course far away from this vision, but I can say I do my best to help CIPSOFT to reach this vision. (I hope they share it at least in the main idea)
    ________________
    Solve the depot trashing problem
    14.09.2010 18:33:47
    Quote Post #28470275

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    Originally posted by Liyn on 14.09.2010 18:08:47:
    > BTW, what's the reason of such a great
    > change: Autumn patch 2009 made PA legal, and now they
    > want to fight with it? Not that I disagree of
    > course, it just seems weird.
    >

    Liyn,

    The fall patch 2009 introduced the "self defense" rule, and the "gang frag aka 20 unjust" rule. These rules were meant to limit power abuse.

    They thought with just these 2 features that they were done and it would be taken care of by game design. So they made that statement that oppression was allowed.

    Just this past year the cheating and abuse problems have resulted in many people leaving the game, those 2 changes were not enough.

    What is ironic, is that the gang frag rule, and the mass bans have been just enough to also upset the cheaters and power abusers (along with those that are fair players that like wars were upset with the gang frag rule). And they lost customers because of this.

    This meant that no one was happy, everyone was upset, and they were losing customers from both groups.

    The focus group and these changes in this years fall patch and the upcoming phase 2 war mode changes are showing cip is taking a HUGE step at listening to the customers. They are now putting in place features that will make the whole game much better. Not for one group over the other, but for both neutral players and the fair warmongers.

    The only ones that will not be happy are the cheaters/griefers.

    It does take time, and it has to be done in steps, and the first step is this fall patch which also lays some of the foundation for the war mode changes.
    14.09.2010 19:01:01
    Quote Post #28470453

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    Originally posted by Elio Kade on 14.09.2010 17:35:07:
    >
    > So this is how it will go after the update then, I
    > wil go into the cave and i see a lvl 50 hunting.
    > Ill just ignore him and start hunting because he cant
    > kill monsters as fast as me.

    You are right, you can sure do that.

    I bet though you will get very bored hunting such easy monsters for your 200+ levels. So who is really losing out by you doing that?
    14.09.2010 19:02:44
    Quote Post #28470467

     
    Liyn

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 101

    Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

    Posts: 874


    Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 14.09.2010 19:01:01:

    > The fall patch 2009 introduced the "self defense"
    > rule, and the "gang frag aka 20 unjust" rule. These
    > rules were meant to limit power abuse.

    Oh, alright, it didn't even cross my mind that 20 unjust per kill could stop PA, since most of PA is done without frags but okay, I understand their point now. Thanks for your explanation.

    > Just this past year the cheating and abuse problems
    > have resulted in many people leaving the game, those
    > 2 changes were not enough.
    >
    > What is ironic, is that the gang frag rule, and the
    > mass bans have been just enough to also upset the
    > cheaters and power abusers (along with those that are
    > fair players that like wars were upset with the gang
    > frag rule). And they lost customers because of
    > this.
    >
    > This meant that no one was happy, everyone was upset,
    > and they were losing customers from both groups.
    >
    > The focus group and these changes in this years fall
    > patch and the upcoming phase 2 war mode changes are
    > showing cip is taking a HUGE step at listening to the
    > customers. They are now putting in place features
    > that will make the whole game much better. Not for
    > one group over the other, but for both neutral
    > players and the fair warmongers.

    Alecto, I perfectly understand that there is a problem (PA) and it has to be fought against. The thing is, that along with PA, the changes are taking casual killing away. Which means there is no longer point in killing someone for something he has done, a botter, thief, scammer, trouble-maker. I won't be able to hunt in peace because no one will be afraid of death anymore. Just look at the atmosphere at nonpvp servers - for me 30 minutes there brings me more annoyance than any other game I've ever played. Should I go to hardcore pvp to play in peace?(what a paradox) The focus group should focus on removing PA while leaving the atmosphere of open pvp servers as it was - people still not wanting to die = acting respectfully.

    > The only ones that will not be happy are the
    > cheaters/griefers.

    Eh, you know, this is a discussion, and a fact that I don't share the same opinion, doesn't make me a cheater or a griefer. I'd like to see some more respect towards different opinions.

    @Magnus: Oki, I hope you can find a solution for this problem.

    Liyn
    ________________
    18:27 Liyn [50]: ive just got beggar outfit
    18:27 Liyn [50]: and i will marry Simon the Beggar!
    18:28 Reeve [74]: level?
    14.09.2010 19:18:51
    Edited by Liyn
    on 14.09.2010 19:24:02
    Quote Post #28470592

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    Liyn,

    The biggest MYTH surrounding Tibia is the MYTH that the "harsh" death penalty is what makes it a good game.

    The ONLY time this is true is when it is the OTHER person that dies.

    If this were true, then people would not buy a promotion to reduce their own death penalty.
    If this were true people would not buy blessings or an AOL to protect their levels and eq.

    And I am sure that once this update comes out, people will once again disprove this myth by lining up in the temples to buy the Twist of Fate blessing.

    The "harsh" death penalty is what the griefers have used to decimate the pvp servers, where many of them are nothing more than "ghost towns" with a very low population left.

    The simple facts are that people do not like the harsh death penalty.

    Tell ya what, here is a personal challenge to you. Have cip remove your promotion, get rid of your blessings, and to make it even more "fun" for you, the next time you die toss away ALL of your eq and containers. That will make it pretty challenging for YOU.
    Hey, if you want the ULTIMATE challenge, just delete your char the next time you die! Bet that will be harsh enough to get your blood moving.

    Ok, I can understand how if someone is "annoying you", or has caused you problems you want to make them "hurt" with a death.
    The problem is that this is something that has been abused for far too long and must be stopped.

    The cheaper death removes a lot of the pain for the victim, and it also removes the reward for the bully.

    Also, just remember, the fair fight rules only reduce the death penalty when it is an unfair fight. So if that low level noob is being so annoying, just log onto one of your noobs and come out to kill him. That will get rid of him and he will suffer a normal death penalty as far as exp. loss goes. Plus if he has blessings it will cost him one blessing, so there is still some pain left with the penalty.
    14.09.2010 19:47:35
    Quote Post #28470829

     
    Liyn

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 101

    Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

    Posts: 874


    Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 14.09.2010 19:47:35:

    > The biggest MYTH surrounding Tibia is the MYTH that
    > the "harsh" death penalty is what makes it a good
    > game.

    I don't think it's a myth. This makes tibia challenging and unique.

    > The ONLY time this is true is when it is the OTHER
    > person that dies.

    You're saying it as if you've just discovered something new and as if I've never been on the victim side. It's obvious that playing on Open PvP we both: agree to die and are able to kill others. It's never nice to die, obviously, but it's impossible to kill others and be prone to death. Something for something. For this reason we obviously buy promotions and blesses. The new system won't eliminate this part either: we will lose little but also others will lose a little while death.

    > If this were true, then people would not buy a
    > promotion to reduce their own death penalty.
    > If this were true people would not buy blessings or
    > an AOL to protect their levels and eq.

    But obviously it isn't true.

    > And I am sure that once this update comes out, people
    > will once again disprove this myth by lining up in
    > the temples to buy the Twist of Fate blessing.

    Of course they will, it's never nice to die and lose a lot.

    > The "harsh" death penalty is what the griefers have
    > used to decimate the pvp servers, where many of them
    > are nothing more than "ghost towns" with a very low
    > population left.

    Yep, but this is a matter of Power Abuse: people get hunted off servers which never should take place.

    > The simple facts are that people do not like the
    > harsh death penalty.

    They don't like power abuse.*

    > Tell ya what, here is a personal challenge to you.
    > Have cip remove your promotion, get rid of your
    > blessings, and to make it even more "fun" for you,
    > the next time you die toss away ALL of your eq and
    > containers. That will make it pretty challenging for
    > YOU.
    > Hey, if you want the ULTIMATE challenge, just delete
    > your char the next time you die! Bet that will be
    > harsh enough to get your blood moving.

    Huh? Please tell me, in which sentence I said that I enjoy dying/ losing a lot myself. It's obvious I don't like it on myself but it's usually the only way to make people act respectfully. Killing in 95% cases isn't needed for that. The fear that for stealing my loot they can lose a level and, say, 30k for blesses, made them act acordingly - never touching my stuff. <- just an example.

    > Ok, I can understand how if someone is "annoying
    > you", or has caused you problems you want to make
    > them "hurt" with a death.
    > The problem is that this is something that has been
    > abused for far too long and must be stopped.
    >
    > The cheaper death removes a lot of the pain for the
    > victim, and it also removes the reward for the bully.

    Yeah, once again about power abuse. Alecto, tell me, haven't you ever killed someone for a reason?

    > Also, just remember, the fair fight rules only reduce
    > the death penalty when it is an unfair fight. So if
    > that low level noob is being so annoying, just log
    > onto one of your noobs and come out to kill him.

    Low level noobs being annoying are now- they have nothing to lose. With this patch higher levels will start being annoying - they will have almost nothing to lose, unlike nowadays.
    ________________
    18:27 Liyn [50]: ive just got beggar outfit
    18:27 Liyn [50]: and i will marry Simon the Beggar!
    18:28 Reeve [74]: level?
    14.09.2010 20:28:12
    Quote Post #28471127

     
    Aver Ebonheart

    Inhabitant of Celesta
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 14

    Posts: 53


    it's easy. !!!!!!!!!!They should listen 2 groups of ppl!!!!!!! The one who likes common updates and those who don't. <<<<<<<<<<<<< it is so ***** hard? tell me . Make 2 servers with old pvp system and you will see how many will start play.
    It's just an idea. It can be good for Cipsoft to make much money from old players who still wanna play with old pvp not making new quest's and any other implemented ideas
    14.09.2010 21:12:13
    Edited by Aver Ebonheart
    on 14.09.2010 21:12:41
    Quote Post #28471510

     

    Página 7:

    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    Liyn,

    You don't get it. You can't have it both ways. You are admitting that most of the people will buy promotions, aol, blessings, and the new pvp blessing so THEIR OWN death loss will be reduced.
    And of course no one will take up my challenge to toss all their eq and containers, nor will they delete their char when they die.

    This clearly shows that people do NOT like the harsh death penalty.

    To say you do, but when it is the other person that dies is being a hypocrite!

    > The "harsh" death penalty is what the griefers have
    > used to decimate the pvp servers, where many of them
    > are nothing more than "ghost towns" with a very low
    > population left.

    Yep, but this is a matter of Power Abuse


    Right, and the only way the bullies can abuse their power is with the threat of causing harm to the victim.

    A person gets "hunted" off of a server because of the cost of a harsh death penalty. A person is stuck in pz because of the harsh death penalty. Repeated deaths just cost too much! The 5 blessings are quite expensive to buy each time you die. Even with the blessings, the loss of exp and skills means hours, sometimes days and weeks of time gone!

    People have just given up on the game because of this. It is a plain and simple FACT!

    people get hunted off servers which never should take place.

    Your own words say that this should not happen!

    This fall patch is to address this problem. By removing the reward for the bully, and by making the death less harsh for the victim, it will not be easy to "hunt" a person off of the server. It will not be easy to keep a person in pz. This will have an effect on the power abuse.

    Here is one more little challenge to you. In your own words you say power abuse should never take place. So what is your solution?

    Enlighten me, and just to make sure you know, I will examine what you say in every detail, looking for each and every flaw. So you better think it through before you post, and make sure you have a rock solid argument and solution to present.
    14.09.2010 21:28:11
    Quote Post #28471672

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    oh, and to answer your last question, yes, I have killed a few times. Almost exclusively to defend myself or to revenge the death of a friend.

    For me, the satisfaction of seeing them drop was enough and meant more to me.
    14.09.2010 21:31:55
    Quote Post #28471707

     
    Liyn

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 101

    Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

    Posts: 874


    Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 14.09.2010 21:28:11:

    > You don't get it. You can't have it both ways. You
    > are admitting that most of the people will buy
    > promotions, aol, blessings, and the new pvp blessing
    > so THEIR OWN death loss will be reduced.
    > And of course no one will take up my challenge to
    > toss all their eq and containers, nor will they
    > delete their char when they die.
    >
    > This clearly shows that people do NOT like the harsh
    > death penalty.

    But people will continue dying in PvM with the harsh punishments, right? And prolly no one (at least with OK internet connection) ever retires because of that. Why some people retire from PvP deaths and not from PvM ones? Because, when hunted off, they die way too much and too often. If they continued being only killed randomly and for a reason, not cause of PA, they would not leave the game. This implies that the problem is not harsh death penalty but PA.


    > People have just given up on the game because of
    > this. It is a plain and simple FACT!
    >
    > people get hunted off servers which never should
    > take place.

    >
    > Your own words say that this should not happen!

    I've been telling it for years now. In almost each post I made in this thread I wrote that I'm against PA. Glad you finally got it.

    > Here is one more little challenge to you. In your
    > own words you say power abuse should never take
    > place. So what is your solution?
    >
    > Enlighten me, and just to make sure you know, I will
    > examine what you say in every detail, looking for
    > each and every flaw. So you better think it through
    > before you post, and make sure you have a rock solid
    > argument and solution to present.

    1 vs CipSoft+Focus group? Not fair at all.
    Anyways: PvP blessing based on your unjust list and death list.
    How it works? There is an NPC that sells cheap PvP blessing. Peaceful players (0-2 unjust within 3 months) get the cheapest and best blessing (this blessing also gives the exp protection). Less peaceful (3-5 unjust/3months) get more expensive and worse blessing. And so on. Hardcore Player killers with a large amount of unjusts lose the same as in PvM. That is 1st factor. Now the second: basing on your death list. If it is your first PvP death within this month, you lose the same as in PvM (not losing the blessing), no matter peaceful or not. The 2nd death, in case of group first, costs you already some % less - both exp and cash for blessing. Accordingly group 2nd loses more exp but less than during first death. After, let's say 3rd death within the same month, a peaceful group wouldn't lose almost anything. The rest is just numbers and to fix them accordingly so it's ok for each group.
    What would it cause? Peaceful (or almost peaceful) players could not be hunted off anymore. We could be killed for the first time with harsh penalty, but killing us several times would make no sense.
    Still, if anyone has done anything to you, you can make him punished just like now. PK guilds would be the main target of leading guilds - just like it should be. The more you kill, the more you're getting killed. The more often you die, the less you lose. Those who want to play in peace, could do so. Those who love to fight - would have a lot of possibilities.
    It's just a random idea so don't expect I can do a work of 100 people thinking for months, in 5 minutes.

    Liyn
    ________________
    18:27 Liyn [50]: ive just got beggar outfit
    18:27 Liyn [50]: and i will marry Simon the Beggar!
    18:28 Reeve [74]: level?
    14.09.2010 22:04:04
    Edited by Liyn
    on 14.09.2010 22:07:13
    Quote Post #28471994

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    Originally posted by Liyn on 14.09.2010 22:04:04:

    > But people will continue dying in PvM with the harsh
    > punishments, right? And prolly no one (at least with
    > OK internet connection) ever retires because of that.
    > Why some people retire from PvP deaths and not from
    > PvM ones?

    The answer to that is very simple. When hunting monsters people tend to hunt ones that are suitable for their level. So if they die, it is usually because they know they messed up. And most players don't die that often from monsters.

    Sometimes a person will hunt a "hard" monster for their level, and if they die, they knew going into it that there was a high chance of the death.

    The key here is that the person had an element of control.

    Come on, how many level 15's will solo hunt a dragon lord?

    This is why a person can be hunted off, a level 50 has no chance at all against a level 200, or even a small team of the leading pa guild.

    > Because, when hunted off, they die way too
    > much and too often.

    You are right, the death penalty is too severe and they lose too much to be able to continue to play.

    > If they continued being only
    > killed randomly and for a reason, not cause of PA,
    > they would not leave the game. This implies that the
    > problem is not harsh death penalty but PA.

    um, there is no way to seperate the difference. And for fair players, there are only so many deaths they can afford before it becomes too expensive, no matter if it is from abuse, random pk's etc....

    > I've been telling it for years now. In almost each
    > post I made in this thread I wrote that I'm against
    > PA. Glad you finally got it.

    Awesome! Glad to hear we are on the same side.

    >
    > 1 vs CipSoft+Focus group? Not fair at all.

    ROFL

    Oh, the irony!

    > Anyways: PvP blessing based on your unjust list and
    > death list.
    > How it works? [cut for space]

    > It's just a random idea so don't expect I can do a
    > work of 100 people thinking for months, in 5
    > minutes.
    >
    > Liyn

    Not bad for a quick response, actually it was pretty good. Your idea is fairly close to a few of the discussions that took place in the focus group.

    I will spare both of us the numerous pages of debate and just say that the decision was made that the reductions would be for everyone, such as even white skull players and those in war mode.
    The reasoning is that even those in war and those that kill occasionally need a cheaper death penalty to make the game more interesting and fun for everyone.
    14.09.2010 22:44:51
    Edited by Alecto Misc
    on 14.09.2010 22:45:55
    Quote Post #28472307

     
    Liyn

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 101

    Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

    Posts: 874


    Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 14.09.2010 22:44:51:

    > The answer to that is very simple. When hunting
    > monsters people tend to hunt ones that are suitable
    > for their level. So if they die, it is usually
    > because they know they messed up. And most players
    > don't die that often from monsters.
    >
    > Sometimes a person will hunt a "hard" monster for
    > their level, and if they die, they knew going into it
    > that there was a high chance of the death.
    >
    > The key here is that the person had an element of
    > control.


    Hm, I don't know if it's me a weirdo but for 6 deaths I had on this character, there was one in PvP, 4 from lags/kicks and only 1 where I took the risk. Similarly for my neutral friends: mostly lags/kicks, sometimes PvP or conscious risk.


    > um, there is no way to seperate the difference. And
    > for fair players, there are only so many deaths they
    > can afford before it becomes too expensive, no matter
    > if it is from abuse, random pk's etc....

    I'm a perfect example of a player (at least this char) that plays without power abuse. Was that one random PK death too harsh for me? Nope. 1/6 of all deaths. I could even die more often in PvP, still wouldn't change my mind.
    But a person that gets power abused, for example hunted off for nothing, gets killed a lot. Then there is a problem, cause he can't level up and gain cash fast enough. If he wasn't PAed, he would prolly die 0-several times per 100lvls, if he didn't cause problems/ played respectfully. This wouldn't be too harsh. That's why I think the PvP penalty is ok, under the condition that the PA gets stopped.


    > Awesome! Glad to hear we are on the same side.

    _o/



    > The reasoning is that even those in war and those
    > that kill occasionally need a cheaper death penalty
    > to make the game more interesting and fun for
    > everyone.

    According to that proposal I wrote, occasional PKing for fun would place the person prolly in 2nd group so he still could do that sometimes, for a cheaper price. But IMHO those that don't kill at all/ almost at all should lose less as well. And mass PKers- punished accordingly. Wars are different topic, I deliberately don't talk about them, since I've never been in one.

    > Not bad for a quick response, actually it was pretty
    > good. Your idea is fairly close to a few of the
    > discussions that took place in the focus group.
    >
    > I will spare both of us the numerous pages of debate
    > and just say that the decision was made that the
    > reductions would be for everyone, such as even white
    > skull players and those in war mode.

    Alright, all I can do is to trust you and the rest of Focus group on this one. Meh, everyone should be able to at least read your forum.:/ That would surely make understanding of this decision easier.

    Liyn
    ________________
    18:27 Liyn [50]: ive just got beggar outfit
    18:27 Liyn [50]: and i will marry Simon the Beggar!
    18:28 Reeve [74]: level?
    14.09.2010 23:31:48
    Edited by Liyn
    on 14.09.2010 23:34:16
    Quote Post #28472671

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Senseless to keep arguing when one denies the evidence.
    Who wants to understand has already understood.
    ________________
    INFLICTING PAIN ON GRIEFERS
    PVP BLESSING
    LIMIT CONTAINERS CAP!
    §OLD ACCOUNTS§ Ancients power
    15.09.2010 07:46:31
    Quote Post #28474858

     
    Mazarak

    Inhabitant of Solera
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 131

    One of the Prophecy

    Posts: 144


    Look Aleppe, I've made my point and I'm not going to re-state it or keep senselessly arguing. You know my opinion, and CiP now knows my opinion. I mean, they seriously can't implement this with SO MUCH negative feedback. I could have taken a totally different perspective on this and looked at all the positives of this change, but I want to be realistic here. Even though yes, there are some positives, the negatives CLEARLY outweigh them.

    I am pleading with CiP not to make this change, or the one re. fair fight rules. They seriously can't make the change when there is this amount of negative feedback from a small group of people replying on the forums. Imagine what would happen if this went live. I'm going to stop posting here now, but please listen to reason CiP. Please.
    ________________
    (\__/)
    (O.o )
    (> < ) This is Bunny.
    15.09.2010 09:09:34
    Quote Post #28475113

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    The difference between to say that
    • "the Twist of fate and Fair Fight rules will balance the deaths penalties between pvm and pvp and the pvp environment between warmongers and peaceful players"

      and to say that

    • "these changes aren't fair because they harm several players' vision of the game"
    is that the 1st is an axiom supported by datas and objective facts, the second an opinion based on personal experience.

    Hence, the only one which can eventually change is the latter and not the former due to their own nature.


    Aleppe
    ________________
    INFLICTING PAIN ON GRIEFERS
    PVP BLESSING
    LIMIT CONTAINERS CAP!
    §OLD ACCOUNTS§ Ancients power
    15.09.2010 09:44:26
    Quote Post #28475231

     
    Morthanius

    Inhabitant of Nova
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 104

    Noo ble of the Divine Intervention (Man of Leisure)

    Posts: 4955


    Spent some time on the test server having a little look at the changes that have been made, for me this is one of the most positive changes in recent years. I see there are lots of 'griefers' kicking and shouting at no longer being able to devastate players Tibia careers quite so easily, though I trust only logical arguments are being evaluated.

    A great step forward, looking forward to buying the blessing for real. Can't say for definite, but who knows, this might the pivotal change we need to revive Open-PvP!
    ________________
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    Morthanius
    15.09.2010 16:26:52
    Quote Post #28477077

     
    Craban
    Product Manager

    Inhabitant of Arcania
    Profession: None
    Level: 4

    Posts: 4103


    Fixes online.
    ________________
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    The mask I wear is one.

    (Sting)
    A very good approach on how to play Tibia WITH others rather than AGAINST!
    15.09.2010 16:44:54
    Quote Post #28477220

     
    Sharp Dressed Man

    Inhabitant of Dolera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 126

    Funky of the Dancy Time (Beast Mode)

    Posts: 871
    Thumbs up 

    Nice feature, will make wars last longer
    ________________
    - Your friendly neighborhood Sharp Dressed Man

    Encourage Hardcore PvP!
    Say NO to Swappy Time!
    16.09.2010 07:00:14
    Quote Post #28482522

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    @ Hardcore PVP:

    It's needed a reduction of Twist of Fate costs due to repeated deaths: in Open pvp servers the skull system limits somehow gangs' power, but there is no skull system in hardcore pvp servers limiting griefers power.

    Yes, the Twist of Fate sets cheaper deaths aftemaths, but if one gets fragged repeated times this feature won't solve newcomers/low levels troubles.


    Aleppe
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    16.09.2010 09:14:29
    Quote Post #28482972

     
    Guardakan

    Inhabitant of Dolera
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 103

    Legend of the Deadly

    Posts: 544


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 16.09.2010 09:14:29:
    > @ Hardcore PVP:
    >
    > It's needed a reduction of Twist of Fate costs due to
    > repeated deaths: in Open pvp servers the skull system
    > limits somehow gangs' power, but there is no skull
    > system in hardcore pvp servers limiting griefers
    > power.
    >
    > Yes, the Twist of Fate sets cheaper deaths aftemaths,
    > but if one gets fragged repeated times this feature
    > won't solve newcomers/low levels troubles.
    >
    >
    > Aleppe


    i think you're right.

    a way it could be made is that ::

    below level 50, blessings could be 50% cheaper (including hte new pvp bless) than on normal pvps, whereAS, after level 50, the price would remain the same.

    this would make so players below level 50 wouldnt get demoralised since they would be getting excessively cheap blessings and could keep playing the server, eventually make friends/get protection/help and than reach a decent level.

    altho, after level 50, deaths are meant to be war-related, or consequences to some actions the player did. there would be no need for blessings to be cheaper than, in my opinion. i mean its like having war system in some way.


    edit::: we could make something like, if you get killed 3 times by the same guy in a month, than you get a certain ammount of reduction (lets say 25% next time you buy your bless the first time, and 50% if he keeps hitting on you) on the cost of your blessing, making so that it owuld be extremely hard for a player to keep power abusing a single other player.

    edit 2:

    we could also make so that war system deaths would not count on the bless reduction (if you get killed 3x by a guy who you are in war system against), and put exp from PVP when killing players you are in war system against.

    this would make so that people would want to go in war system, and therefore couldnt get the reduction on their blessing cost... they would have to choose : no war system but 25%/50% cheaper bless or exp from pvp and "fullprice" on blesses
    16.09.2010 11:03:00
    Edited by Guardakan
    on 16.09.2010 11:07:18
    Quote Post #28483361

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    below level 50, blessings could be 50% cheaper (including hte new pvp bless) than on normal pvps, whereAS, after level 50, the price would remain the same.

    Well, there is already a proposal for chars up to lv 20 and another one for chars up to lv 50-60. We were said that we'll talk about it on Phase 2.


    altho, after level 50, deaths are meant to be war-related, or consequences to some actions the player did. there would be no need for blessings to be cheaper than, in my opinion. i mean its like having war system in some way.

    The war system phase will give us a lot of headaches: there are many proposals waiting to be checked and many new ones to talk about.


    we could make something like, if you get killed 3 times by the same guy in a month, than you get a certain ammount of reduction (lets say 25% next time you buy your bless the first time, and 50% if he keeps hitting on you) on the cost of your blessing, making so that it owuld be extremely hard for a player to keep power abusing a single other player.

    I'd set same killer actions for war system purposes (remember that there is a proposal to give back human frags exp for Hardcore servers in war system), but repeated pvp deaths reductions shouldn't rely on same kilelr actions, but on a general counter.


    we could also make so that war system deaths would not count on the bless reduction (if you get killed 3x by a guy who you are in war system against), and put exp from PVP when killing players you are in war system against.

    Eheh, I see where you want to go, and I like it


    Aleppe
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    16.09.2010 11:18:38
    Quote Post #28483458

     
    Abel Zaraka

    Inhabitant of Premia
    Profession: Sorcerer
    Level: 24

    Posts: 10


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 15.09.2010 09:44:26:
    > The difference between to say that
    • "the
      > Twist of fate and Fair Fight rules will balance the
      > deaths penalties between pvm and pvp and the pvp
      > environment between warmongers and peaceful players"
      >
      > and to say that
      >
      >
    • "these changes aren't fair because they harm
      > several players' vision of the game"
    is that
    > the 1st is an axiom supported by datas and objective
    > facts, the second an opinion based on personal
    > experience.
    >
    > Hence, the only one which can eventually change is
    > the latter and not the former due to their own
    > nature.
    >
    >
    > Aleppe

    hey remind me again how is the first one not an opinion. it is NOT a fact that players who are peaceful deserve less of a death, that is an opinion. balance in this sense is also an opinion not a fact. there is no scale to determine balance, theres no way to measure balance, it's an opinion.
    16.09.2010 15:05:46
    Quote Post #28484620

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    hey remind me again how is the first one not an opinion. it is NOT a fact that players who are peaceful deserve less of a death

    Where have you read such a senseless statement? Never written anything like that.


    Aleppe
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    16.09.2010 15:36:28
    Quote Post #28484774

     
    Abel Zaraka

    Inhabitant of Premia
    Profession: Sorcerer
    Level: 24

    Posts: 10


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 16.09.2010 15:36:28:
    > hey remind me again how is the first one not an
    > opinion. it is NOT a fact that players who are
    > peaceful deserve less of a death

    >
    > Where have you read such a senseless statement? Never
    > written anything like that.
    >
    >
    > Aleppe

    Do you not read your own statements? The way you phrased what I quoted directly implies this is "balance war mongers and peaceful players", this system is going to help peaceful players. You state that creating a system that benefits them is balance that is an opinion but you regard it is a fact. Either restate your original statement or admit they're both opinions.

    I'm expecting an ad hominem attack from you instead of a response so go ahead
    16.09.2010 17:35:45
    Quote Post #28485531

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Do you not read your own statements? The way you phrased what I quoted directly implies this is "balance war mongers and peaceful players", this system is going to help peaceful players.

    I'll quote here my statement:

    "the Twist of fate and Fair Fight rules will balance the deaths penalties between pvm and pvp and the pvp environment between warmongers and peaceful players"

    let's take away the environments parts to make it more clear:

    "the Twist of fate and Fair Fight rules will balance the deaths penalties between warmongers and peaceful players"

    Now, given that both warmongers and peaceful players will benefit of the same reduction, the ONLY way to understand my statement like you did is to consider JUST peaceful players death reductions, meaning that in your PERSONAL vision warmongers do not fight each other, but just harm peaceful players turning them into their victims.

    To prove that this is right your point of view, I'll wuote here your previous version of what you've understood:

    it is NOT a fact that players who are peaceful deserve less of a death

    and that's mistaken because:
    1. Both warmongers and peaceful players would beneit of the SAME reductions
    2. The statement talks about a balancement between warmongers AND peaceful players, not warmenger VS peaceful players, meaning, again, that BOTH sides would benefit of this feature REGARDLESS of their game attitudes
    Last but not least: yes, if in YOUR vision peceful players are the DESIGNED VICTIMS of warmongers, you'll surely think that this feature helps mostly peaceful players.

    That's a PERSONAL opinion which belongs to the 2nd point - "these changes aren't fair because they harm several players' vision of the game" - hence, again, waht can eventually change is YOUR personal vision, not how things are for true.


    Aleppe
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    16.09.2010 17:51:24
    Edited by Aleppe
    on 16.09.2010 17:54:02
    Quote Post #28485628

     
    Crowl

    Inhabitant of Solera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 114

    Divine Healer of the Castlings

    Posts: 41


    If i got all blessing, and pvp blessing, and die to a creature.

    Do i then also loose the pvp blessing?
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    16.09.2010 21:00:39
    Quote Post #28487194

     
    Liyn

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 101

    Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

    Posts: 874


    Originally posted by Crowl on 16.09.2010 21:00:39:
    > If i got all blessing, and pvp blessing, and die to a
    > creature.
    >
    > Do i then also loose the pvp blessing?

    Nope, then you only lose the normal blessings, the PvP one stays. If you then die in PvP, you also don't lose the PvP blessing. Only when you buy at least one normal blessing.


    Liyn
    ________________
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    18:27 Liyn [50]: and i will marry Simon the Beggar!
    18:28 Reeve [74]: level?
    16.09.2010 21:04:48
    Quote Post #28487245

     

    Página 8:

    Zippir Velet

    Inhabitant of Selena
    Profession: Elite Knight
    Level: 191

    Posts: 325


    There's a thing taht i didn't understand and didn't feel like reading all pages so heres my question


    For ex. you bought aol or regular blessings and in addition this new pvp-blessing and let's you got killed by a monster,you'll loose your pvp-blessings or it'll remain till somebody come up and kill u?



    Already thanks!
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    16.09.2010 22:54:23
    Quote Post #28488154

     
    Liyn

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 101

    Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

    Posts: 874


    Originally posted by Zippir Velet on 16.09.2010 22:54:23:
    > There's a thing taht i didn't understand and didn't
    > feel like reading all pages so heres my question
    >
    >
    > For ex. you bought aol or regular blessings and in
    > addition this new pvp-blessing and let's you got
    > killed by a monster,you'll loose your pvp-blessings
    > or it'll remain till somebody come up and kill u?
    >
    >
    >
    > Already thanks!

    Answering the same question 2nd time in row

    Nope, then you only lose the normal blessings/aol, the PvP one stays. If you then die in PvP, you also don't lose the PvP blessing. Only when you buy at least one normal blessing.
    Tested with a ceremonial ankh

    Liyn
    ________________
    18:27 Liyn [50]: ive just got beggar outfit
    18:27 Liyn [50]: and i will marry Simon the Beggar!
    18:28 Reeve [74]: level?
    16.09.2010 23:09:18
    Quote Post #28488258

     
    Noxuos

    Inhabitant of Dolera
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 173

    Loony of the Dancy Time (Unstoppable)

    Posts: 65


    The new pvp blessings will make deaths due to pvp nearly meaningless. This game was once known for having a high death penalty which gave everything move value. The death penalty has already been reduced, why should the death penalty be less severe when dying in pvp action? Neither the death penalty in pvp or pvm action should be reduced but if something had to be reduced it would make more sense to reduce pvm deaths as for most pvm deaths are due to lags and kicks.

    One of the aspects that I love about this game is the ability for teams to dictate their preferred server. With the pvp blessings deaths in battles will have nearly no meaning which will push people to take more risks without care, turning pvp combat into a pointless mess.

    I started this game on a pvp server when pvp-enforced servers didn't exist. Due to the 20 unjust system update I had to restart on another world to be able to continue playing the way I like to play. Now I'm sitting here on Dolera watching the only decently fun server left get ruined more and more after each pvp change.

    Please stop ruining the pvp portion of this game.
    17.09.2010 01:37:13
    Quote Post #28489397

     
    Timothy Deathbringer

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 116

    Consigliere of the Bim Bash

    Posts: 206


    If you have the pvp blessing, and fully blessed, Will you lose any items while dying due to PVP?
    17.09.2010 02:14:58
    Quote Post #28489562

     
    Kub Karioxus

    Inhabitant of Kyra
    Profession: Elite Knight
    Level: 62

    Posts: 9


    SIGNED WITH NOXUOS

    sad to see that mny ppl will just quit for games like silkroad cuz it will be same but there is better graphic
    17.09.2010 02:25:29
    Quote Post #28489616

     
    Liyn

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 101

    Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

    Posts: 874


    Originally posted by Timothy Deathbringer on 17.09.2010 02:14:58:
    > If you have the pvp blessing, and fully blessed, Will
    > you lose any items while dying due to PVP?

    Nope. Full blessings protect you from losing anything and the pvp blessing protects your other blessings. So it depends on the normal blessings only. If you have, say, 2 blesses + pvp one, there is the same chance of losing items as having 2 blesses but no pvp one. PvP blessing only makes you not lose other blesses.


    Liyn
    ________________
    18:27 Liyn [50]: ive just got beggar outfit
    18:27 Liyn [50]: and i will marry Simon the Beggar!
    18:28 Reeve [74]: level?
    17.09.2010 02:34:20
    Quote Post #28489657

     
    Marazxz

    Inhabitant of Solera
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 75

    Posts: 744


    Ab'dendriel blessing npc "Edala" doesnt sell pvp blessing.

    Current state: aol equipped and 1 blessing bought "fire of the suns" (same npc).

    Tested saying:
    "twist of fate"
    "pvp blessing"

    edit: Ok... I must be doing something wrong "Humphrey" doesnt want to sell it too.

    edit 2: NVM, I realized its on TEMPLE npcs, ok I guess...
    ________________
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    17.09.2010 22:30:52
    Edited by Marazxz
    on 17.09.2010 22:40:04
    Quote Post #28495859

     
    Pa pekear

    Inhabitant of Arcania
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 69

    Part of the Black Fire

    Posts: 5


    LOL?
    SD use for kill a player = waste of blessings of player dead.

    Now the pk and the dead waste same, This is a joke.
    The pk waste: 1 frags and x money.
    the player dead waste, z exp and y money.

    x=y
    z=(2% or -)* 0,2=exp lost.
    Pk waste more.
    18.09.2010 20:54:55
    Quote Post #28502025

     
    Viritous

    Inhabitant of Inferna
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 50

    Posts: 8
    Post Increase pvp blessing costs!

    I guess many people already posted this but I want to post too. If you ask me there shouldn't be any pvp blessing at all. But let's go:

    Why should a level 200+ only lose 20k per dead by pvp?
    This is an incredibly low death penalty and everyone knows a level 200 can easily get 100k on a day not playing long. A level 120 already has a war bp worth of minimum 40k and now he only has to pay 20k per dead with bless.

    Where is the thrill and the fun?
    I always used to have an adrenaline boost in pvp battles hoping not to die cause I would lose a lot of money and exp. Now if you die in a battle you see you only lost 20k of your 10kk.

    Do you know how different and easy Tibia will get?
    Wars will never end cause of the low cost on pvp bless. Massive pkers will more often come back after a dead.

    Who will especially benefit from this?
    High lvls making more money per day/hours then the pvp blessing cost.
    (with other words lower levels have lesser chances due to their lower gold per hour).
    If exp by player killing was still enabled I would probably sell exp on many characters.

    Where is this also leading to?

    from Nesegu +/-:

    People who got abused may benefit from this but the power abusers will also be impossible to take out.

    Before there was a small chance to stand up to power abusers but now you lose about nothing so who would give up their position that fast for 20k per dead? A big leading team can technically not even run out of money.

    More pk teams/hunted people spreading chaos by pking which will lead to more people retiring.


    Conclusion
    This is an absurd low price and I'd like to see it risen.
    19.09.2010 00:16:46
    Edited by Viritous
    on 19.09.2010 00:26:41
    Quote Post #28503218

     
    Dark Clouds

    Inhabitant of Pacera
    Profession: Sorcerer
    Level: 16

    Posts: 13
    Thumbs down 

    fix thing like sheep killers while trainin an many other probles like loot thief b4 worry bout any thinks else
    19.09.2010 07:27:09
    Quote Post #28504878

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    @ Viritous:

    Why should a level 200+ only lose 20k per dead by pvp?

    Agreed.


    Where is the thrill and the fun?

    Thrill:
    Go around without aol, blessing and twist of fate with full eq and 2-3 softs.

    Fun:
    More pvp events = more fun.


    Do you know how different and easy Tibia will get?

    Different:
    Yes, this is the beginning of a new era.

    Easy:
    It depends.
    If you talk about the possibility to recover pvp death losses, yes it will be easier and it's right how it should be to not see people forced in PZ.
    If your'e talking about pvp combats, nope: swaps and revenge skull will require manual pvp skills.


    Who will especially benefit from this?

    All players' kinds (fair warmongers and peaceful ones) out of cheaters and griefers.


    If exp by player killing was still enabled I would probably sell exp on many characters.

    There is a proposal to bring it back just for Hardcore pvp war system, and you can be sure that it will be back just if we (focus group) will find a not abusable way to do so.


    Where is this also leading to?

    Hopefully to make griefers and cheaters to leave, although I think that to achieve suh result we should seriously think to implement Dragonas' proposal about to make characters with permawarning unable to attack unmarked characters.


    Aleppe
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    19.09.2010 09:32:58
    Quote Post #28505206

     
    Vatras-Druid

    Inhabitant of Lucera
    Profession: Druid
    Level: 11

    Posts: 132


    Everything is FINE! Finally justice on every world!
    19.09.2010 20:41:02
    Quote Post #28508661

     
    Yogixu

    Inhabitant of Lucera
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 50

    Posts: 1
    Thumbs up 

    100% Signed for this patch!!! good job cip soft i'll be back to play because there will be no pa anymore!
    19.09.2010 20:47:14
    Quote Post #28508748

     
    Wonder Fool

    Inhabitant of Eternia
    Profession: Paladin
    Level: 15

    Posts: 8


    Wondering why free account temples should have the power to bestow this PvP blessing upon you. Facc players will just go randomly attacking everyone, making movement in these places all the more difficult.

    This PvP blesing should only be available for Premium players at premium towns' temples (Adds another bonus to buy Premium)

    Regards
    20.09.2010 08:04:05
    Quote Post #28512009

     
    Magus Firefly

    Inhabitant of Refugia
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 225

    Smilodon of the Sixth Extinction

    Posts: 5151


    Hi

    Originally posted by Wonder Fool on 20.09.2010 08:04:05:
    > Wondering why free account temples should have the
    > power to bestow this PvP blessing upon you. Facc
    > players will just go randomly attacking everyone,
    > making movement in these places all the more
    > difficult.
    >
    > This PvP blesing should only be available for Premium
    > players at premium towns' temples (Adds another bonus
    > to buy Premium)
    >
    > Regards

    Bad idea. Then all who look for loot will only kill free accounts, because the chance for them to get money is allready lower (spawns are taken 24/7 and by far less good spawns), additionally they cant buy all blessings...

    For sure enough disadvantages.
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    20.09.2010 08:37:47
    Quote Post #28512115

     
    Vericrus

    Inhabitant of Premia
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 104

    Validus of the Agens (In the army)

    Posts: 44


    Why change something that works instead of other features that don't? Makes no sense :<
    20.09.2010 08:51:19
    Edited by Vericrus
    on 20.09.2010 08:51:32
    Quote Post #28512145

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Originally posted by Vericrus on 20.09.2010 08:51:19:
    > Why change something that works instead of other
    > features that don't? Makes no sense :<

    Is it possible to force people in PZ or to leave a server? Yes, hence the actual system doesn't work and the Twist of Fate joined with FFrs will fix it.
    Enough said.


    Aleppe
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    20.09.2010 10:13:07
    Quote Post #28512366

     
    Cathbad

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 103

    Posts: 132


    @ Craban:

    I feel urgent to set further protections at least for chars up to lv 20 (virtual AOL or whatever), if not for chars up to lv 50-60: too many players on this level range begging for AOLs in TS.
    ________________
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    Time ago I dreamed magic for the moon, and she still dances for me now as she did then. Cathbad is my name, and I'm still dreaming.
    20.09.2010 10:29:40
    Quote Post #28512412

     
    Wonder Fool

    Inhabitant of Eternia
    Profession: Paladin
    Level: 15

    Posts: 8


    Cip's revenue is coming from premium players, not free account players.

    That's why i said this PvP bless bonus should be only available for Premium account players.

    Come to think of it, with 4 normal blessings in free areas, the chances of losing items and BP is considerably reduced already.

    Give them PvP bless and you usher in increased random PKs running wild in every facc town.
    20.09.2010 10:52:28
    Quote Post #28512476

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Cip's revenue is coming from premium players, not free account players.

    Well', that's simply not true: if not, there woulnd't exist faccs at all.
    All newcomers are free accounts at the beginning.


    Come to think of it, with 4 normal blessings in free areas, the chances of losing items and BP is considerably reduced already.
    Give them PvP bless and you usher in increased random PKs running wild in every facc town.


    PVP events need to be frequent to turn the whole environment into an appealing one.
    Moreover, they would PK characters protected by twist of fate and aol/blessings themselves, hence I don't share your concerns.


    Aleppe
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    20.09.2010 11:01:21
    Quote Post #28512513

     

    Página 9:

    Brandon Shae

    Inhabitant of Eternia
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 93

    Posts: 21


    hi. I don't understand one thing. On test server i was free account, while i died first time with only monster blessing ive got text like that: The fight was unfair and your loses are reduced by 69% well ok. After that i went to kill some skulls then came alot of skulls and killed me again without any blessing (monster and pvp). Then i got text like that : the fight was unfair and your loses are reduced by 80% lol its smth worng? with blessing ive lost much more than without. How it will be with pvp bless? reduced by 90%? or i will be immortal o.0

    oh btw; it took me like 4-5 deads without any blessing on free account to lose JUST ONE LVL >>JUST ONE<< lol

    seems kinda sux update
    20.09.2010 11:19:13
    Edited by Brandon Shae
    on 20.09.2010 11:20:43
    Quote Post #28512604

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    @ Brandon Shae:

    The PVP blessing (twist of fate) and FFRs (Fair Fight Rules) are totally independent features: the latters will keep protecting you from unfair pvp events aftermaths although not twist of fate provided.

    This said, at your level (94) you need to be killed by a killer lv 105 (or more killers which levels sum is 105) to see your death penalty reduced by 20%, and to be kille by a killer lv 470 (or more killers which levels sum is 470) to benefit of the maximum reduction: 80%. These are your FFRs level ranges.

    Also, you should consider that on TS nobody cares about his unjusts, but in regular servers people do.


    Aleppe
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    20.09.2010 11:35:18
    Edited by Aleppe
    on 20.09.2010 11:37:47
    Quote Post #28512678

     
    Brandon Shae

    Inhabitant of Eternia
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 93

    Posts: 21


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 20.09.2010 11:35:18:
    > @ Brandon Shae:
    >
    > The PVP blessing (twist of fate) and FFRs (Fair Fight
    > Rules) are totally independent features: the latters
    > will keep protecting you from unfair pvp events
    > aftermaths although not twist of fate provided.
    >
    > This said, at your level (94) you need to be killed
    > by a killer lv 105 (or more killers which levels sum
    > is 105) to see your death penalty reduced by 20%, and
    > to be kille by a killer lv 470 (or more killers which
    > levels sum is 470) to benefit of the maximum
    > reduction: 80%. These are your FFRs level ranges.
    >
    > Also, you should consider that on TS nobody cares
    > about his unjusts, but in regular servers people do.
    >
    >
    > Aleppe

    But if i were killed by a lvl 105 or more killers which this lvl sum with pvp blessing it will be also 20% reduced?
    20.09.2010 11:45:46
    Quote Post #28512718

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    But if i were killed by a lvl 105 or more killers which this lvl sum with pvp blessing it will be also 20% reduced?

    No, the fair fight rules reduce the loss of experience and skills but not the pvp blessing cost, which is always the cost of one natural blessing on your level.
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    20.09.2010 12:05:02
    Quote Post #28512782

     
    Brandon Shae

    Inhabitant of Eternia
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 93

    Posts: 21


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 20.09.2010 12:05:02:
    > But if i were killed by a lvl 105 or more killers
    > which this lvl sum with pvp blessing it will be also
    > 20% reduced?

    >
    > No, the fair fight rules reduce the loss of
    > experience and skills but not the pvp blessing cost,
    > which is always the cost of one natural blessing on
    > your level.

    so if i get killed by 105 lvl with pvp bless then reduce will be a bit more? like 50%?
    20.09.2010 12:19:30
    Quote Post #28512833

     
    Wonder Fool

    Inhabitant of Eternia
    Profession: Paladin
    Level: 15

    Posts: 8


    @ Aleppe - Play Open pvp, then maybe you will understand my concern
    20.09.2010 12:37:19
    Quote Post #28512879

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Originally posted by Brandon Shae on 20.09.2010 12:19:30:
    > so if i get killed by 105 lvl with pvp bless then
    > reduce will be a bit more? like 50%?

    No, the pvp blessing does not provide any further skills/exp reduction: it just save your AOL and/or other blessings, nothing else.


    @ Wonder Fool:

    @ Aleppe - Play Open pvp, then maybe you will understand my concern

    I'll try to do it, although it's a bit scary


    Aleppe
    ________________
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    20.09.2010 12:53:17
    Quote Post #28512943

     
    Rosuko

    Inhabitant of Menera
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 67

    Posts: 12


    Lets say i'm hunting drakens, wich hit loads of damage, and im an royal paladin level 150. Been hunting them for an hour or so, and in the last minute had to kill 2 lets say, wich hitted me arround 4000 hitpoints, and my hp is way less than that, and an oposite guild apears and kills me, combos me my hole hp, imagine its 1800 , i would have been hited 4000 by monsters and 1800 by players, so it won't actually count as a pvp death ?
    20.09.2010 14:39:38
    Quote Post #28513411

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    Originally posted by Rosuko on 20.09.2010 14:39:38:
    > Lets say i'm hunting drakens, wich hit loads of
    > damage, and im an royal paladin level 150. Been
    > hunting them for an hour or so, and in the last
    > minute had to kill 2 lets say, wich hitted me arround
    > 4000 hitpoints, and my hp is way less than that, and
    > an oposite guild apears and kills me, combos me my
    > hole hp, imagine its 1800 , i would have been hited
    > 4000 by monsters and 1800 by players, so it won't
    > actually count as a pvp death ?

    It is very simple. If the monsters do more than 60% of the damage in the last minute then it is a "monster kill".

    To get the ffr & twist of fate blessing protections the pvp damage MUST be 40% or more in the last minute.
    20.09.2010 15:43:07
    Quote Post #28513825

     
    Nymet

    Inhabitant of Shanera
    Profession: Paladin
    Level: 56

    Badger of Legend of the Republic of the Badgers (Master Platypus)

    Posts: 767


    I thought it was >= 50-60%, surely it wasnt 40%, unless im having a brain fart and I cant remember it correctly
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    20.09.2010 19:23:37
    Quote Post #28516487

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    Originally posted by Nymet on 20.09.2010 19:23:37:
    > I thought it was >= 50-60%, surely it wasnt 40%,
    > unless im having a brain fart and I cant remember it
    > correctly

    We started at 50% pvp damage. But that was changed to 40% pvp damage. Which means if the monsters do more than 60% damage, you lose the regular blessings and do not get any FFR reduction.

    As quoted from the New PvP Features news on the main page

    • Fair Fight Rules: If you get killed and at least 40% of the damage dealt within the last 60 seconds came through PvP damage, the death penalty on level and skills will be reduced according to a certain formula.

    • PvP-Blessing: This is an additional blessing that can be bought at any temple NPC and costs the same as one regular blessing. If you get killed while having this blessing and at least 40% of the damage dealt within the last 60 seconds came through PvP damage, you will not lose your regular blessings and its AOL.
    20.09.2010 19:58:32
    Quote Post #28516977

     
    Nymet

    Inhabitant of Shanera
    Profession: Paladin
    Level: 56

    Badger of Legend of the Republic of the Badgers (Master Platypus)

    Posts: 767


    Ah that explains where I am getting the 50% value from then, now I need to figure out where I am getting this amnesia from then
    ________________
    As the old saying goes... "Fifty NO's and one YES means YES!"
    20.09.2010 20:17:59
    Quote Post #28517238

     
    Syleth One

    Inhabitant of Fortera
    Profession: Royal Paladin
    Level: 154

    One of the Ownage

    Posts: 37


    please do not do this.. If you make this update all wars in all server will not have an end... Because this rule or update of PVP-Blessing means that if someone die fithing war (By players) the blessing just cost 20.000 gps.. Them everybody will not care about die because that price is very very low.

    Please consider this. All players will kill between themselves more frecuently without trouble, because 20.000 gps it is easy to pay.

    And what about inquisition bless.. It won't be a big adventage as it is, someone sure can buy blessing in one npc and it will be better than buy it walking to all those npcs, but if someone are involved in war he just have to walk once and after that he just have to buy bless from npc temple.. it is like buy all blessing in one npc. So it will be just usefull if u die by monsters and in that case u can walk to buy blessings because that person is not involved in war at least the plenty of cases that die by monsters.
    20.09.2010 21:05:43
    Edited by Syleth One
    on 20.09.2010 21:16:23
    Quote Post #28517817

     
    Thorcando

    Inhabitant of Inferna
    Profession: Sorcerer
    Level: 23

    Posts: 1


    Originally posted by Viritous on 19.09.2010 00:16:46:
    > I guess many people already posted this but I want to
    > post too. If you ask me there shouldn't be any pvp
    > blessing at all. But let's go:
    >
    > Why should a level 200+ only lose 20k per dead by
    > pvp?

    > This is an incredibly low death penalty and everyone
    > knows a level 200 can easily get 100k on a day not
    > playing long. A level 120 already has a war bp worth
    > of minimum 40k and now he only has to pay 20k per
    > dead with bless.
    >
    > Where is the thrill and the fun?
    > I always used to have an adrenaline boost in pvp
    > battles hoping not to die cause I would lose a lot of
    > money and exp. Now if you die in a battle you see you
    > only lost 20k of your 10kk.
    >
    > Do you know how different and easy Tibia will
    > get?

    > Wars will never end cause of the low cost on pvp
    > bless. Massive pkers will more often come back after
    > a dead.
    >
    > Who will especially benefit from this?
    > High lvls making more money per day/hours then the
    > pvp blessing cost.
    > (with other words lower levels have lesser chances
    > due to their lower gold per hour).
    > If exp by player killing was still enabled I would
    > probably sell exp on many characters.
    >
    > Where is this also leading to?
    >
    > from Nesegu +/-:
    >
    > People who got abused may benefit from this but the
    > power abusers will also be impossible to take out.
    >
    > Before there was a small chance to stand up to power
    > abusers but now you lose about nothing so who would
    > give up their position that fast for 20k per dead? A
    > big leading team can technically not even run out of
    > money.
    >
    > More pk teams/hunted people spreading chaos by pking
    > which will lead to more people retiring.
    >
    >
    > Conclusion
    > This is an absurd low price and I'd like to see it
    > risen.
    I agree. Especially about the 20k for a pvp blessing, It's way too low.
    20.09.2010 23:41:30
    Quote Post #28519982

     
    Samerian Sheefoo

    Inhabitant of Premia
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 119

    Posts: 1911


    I don't know if someone already posted this, but here it goes.

    There is a typo in the NPC's speache about ToF blessing, NPCs say "ToF doesn't affect experience like normal blessings, but prevents loss of normal blessings and AoL" Something around those terms, while it should say "ToF doesn't only affect experience like normal blessings, but also prevents loss of normal blessings and AoL"

    Yours,
    Sheefoo
    ________________
    Forever in heart, Tharwat R.I.P.
    21.09.2010 07:55:38
    Quote Post #28522343

     
    Zinina

    Inhabitant of Harmonia
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 102

    Kindred Spirit of the Children of Virtue (Kamikaze Ninja)

    Posts: 5198


    Originally posted by Samerian Sheefoo on 21.09.2010 07:55:38:
    > I don't know if someone already posted this, but here
    > it goes.
    >
    > There is a typo in the NPC's speache about ToF
    > blessing, NPCs say "ToF doesn't affect experience
    > like normal blessings, but prevents loss of normal
    > blessings and AoL" Something around those terms,
    > while it should say "ToF doesn't only
    > affect experience like normal blessings, but
    > also prevents loss of normal blessings
    > and AoL"

    I can be wrong, but from what I read, the ToF doesn't have anything to do with death penalty reduction, it is the Fair Fight Rules that reduces your exp loss.

    At least that's what it says in the article on tibia.com. So if that info is correct (which I believe it is), then this NPC statement is correct as it is.
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    21.09.2010 10:21:31
    Quote Post #28522842

     
    Xin San

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 139

    Chieftain of the Yin Yang

    Posts: 661


    Is there any information, how exactly the reduction will work for specified situation to show differences? For example a character lv100 dying from another lv100 and the same one dying from being killed by two lv100 or one lv200 characters.
    ________________
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    21.09.2010 11:42:18
    Quote Post #28523044

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Originally posted by Xin San on 21.09.2010 11:42:18:
    > Is there any information, how exactly the reduction
    > will work for specified situation to show
    > differences? For example a character lv100 dying from
    > another lv100 and the same one dying from being
    > killed by two lv100 or one lv200 characters.

    I'll post the answer to your question in fair fight rules thread, given that here it would be off topic.


    Aleppe
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    21.09.2010 11:49:54
    Quote Post #28523090

     
    Cory Skaizzo

    Inhabitant of Berylia
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 121

    Spirit of the Incognita

    Posts: 1137


    fix the botters before to make any wich the pvp cuz the pvp wont work cuz botters
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    21.09.2010 22:21:16
    Quote Post #28529521

     
    Samerian Sheefoo

    Inhabitant of Premia
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 119

    Posts: 1911


    Originally posted by Zinina on 21.09.2010 10:21:31:
    > I can be wrong, but from what I read, the ToF doesn't
    > have anything to do with death penalty reduction, it
    > is the Fair Fight Rules that reduces your exp loss.
    >
    > At least that's what it says in the article on
    > tibia.com. So if that info is correct (which I
    > believe it is), then this NPC statement is correct as
    > it is.

    What I understand is that ToF works exactly like normal blessings. Normal blessings reduce experience loss, so say if a level 100 with ToF dies by a level 200, he loses 20%, but if he has no bless he loses 40%, which still is with fair PvP rules, but just without the blessings. (These numbers are not what an actual level 100 would lose if he dies by a level 200, it's just an example)

    I could be wrong, but I think that's how it works.

    Yours,
    Sheefoo
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    22.09.2010 01:30:30
    Quote Post #28531394

     
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