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Feature: Fair Fight Rules

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Craban
Product Manager

Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4

Posts: 4103


What is it?

If someone is killed in PvP (has received at least 50% of the damage that killed him through PvP), we will reduce the death penalty on level and skills according to a certain formula.

The victim level and all levels of all those who healed or buffed the victim prior to his death devided by all levels of all attackers and blockers together. The resulting number will be used to multiply the death penalty after all blessings etc have already been counted, so if a level 50 gets killed by a level 100 --> 50 / 100 = 0,5, so the death penalty will in this case be reduced by 50%.

The death penalty will not be increased, so if this is >1, the factor stays 1.

The reduction will be limited to a maximum of 80%, so if this factor goes below 0,2, we will set it to 0,2.

It applies to all characters, also red or black skulls etc.

If the death penalty has been changed (factor was < 1) you get a message when you die by how much your death penalty has been reduced.

What should be tested?

- Does it work correctly?
- Is the reduction ok for all level ranges?
- Are there ways to abuse this?
- Does it actually help the right people?
- Does it break anything else in the game?

Fixes Tue, 12:30 CEST:

- FFRs will not reduce item loss
- The 50% damage rule cannot be changed the way it was suggested, so what we will try is set it to at least 40% must be PvP damage and all damage is only counted from the last 60 seconds (moster damamge used to be counted with no time limit).
- The reduction message will now be shown at the same time with the "You are dead" message so you instantly see that there is something different. Better than nothing I guess.

Fixes Fri 9.10. 18:00 CEST:

- The message about the reduction of the death penalty is now shown in that popup box instead of the game window.

Fixes Wed, 20:00 CEST:

- Let trapped players also swap with monsters / summons. It is likely that we will only let them swap with monsters that can be pushed too which applies to all summonable monsters as far as I know.
- Summons damage will now count fully to the 40% rule, only if the summon dies before the victim, this cannot be done.
- Fair Fight Rules will no longer count healers / buffers if they do not do anything else (attack or assist)

Suggested Improvements

"No Can Do"

- Show the reduction message after relogin in the server log - we have no way to save that across sessions.
- Count damage from summons fully as PvP doesn't work because it would break when the summons are killed before the victim, so we prefer avoiding that kind of confusion.
- Extend the 50% damage rule due to kills during hunts (proposal: add an OR rule for 30% PvP damage within 10 seconds and final blow is by a player / summon) - this also doesn't really work because the server does not really save when exactly damage was done, so the 10 seconds can actually currently not be calculated.
________________
I'm not a man of too many faces,
The mask I wear is one.

(Sting)
A very good approach on how to play Tibia WITH others rather than AGAINST!
27.08.2010 12:52:14
Edited by Craban
on 10.09.2010 18:19:13

Post #28317406

 
Enyx Deathweaver

Inhabitant of Berylia
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 190

Szalony of the Warjaty

Posts: 2975


I killed Alecto Misc.. and he kept his BP without bless, is this intended?

He MAY have had blessings but we're pretty sure he did not, but the second time he came back and I accidentally killed him while he was attacking back he did drop his BP..
________________
I'm just a playa, and I'm playin' my part. So step to the side, cause your blockin' my shine.
27.08.2010 18:16:04
Edited by Enyx Deathweaver
on 27.08.2010 18:35:21

Post #28319740

 
Nymet

Inhabitant of Shanera
Profession: Paladin
Level: 56

Badger of Legend of the Republic of the Badgers (Master Platypus)

Posts: 767


Hmm that shouldn't happen even with a 80% reduction. You sure he didnt have any blessings or AOL?

Of the two times I have died both without blessings I have lost my BP.
________________
As the old saying goes... "Fifty NO's and one YES means YES!"
27.08.2010 18:20:14
Edited by Nymet
on 27.08.2010 18:20:36

Post #28319771

 
Alecto Misc

Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17

Posts: 2198


12:15 You see a dead human (Vol:10).
You recognize Alecto Misc. He was killed by Enyx Deathweaver.

Level 17 killed by level 186.

I did NOT have pvp blessing. Actually, no blessings at all on this char. I kept my BP. Are the FFR rules protecting containers or did I just get lucky that time?

The second time he killed me I did lose my bp.

On the first kill I went from level 17 with 100% to go to level 16 with 10% to go.
The second death took me to level 16 with 21% to go. So the level loss is very small.

Sword skills went from 38 with 77% to go to 38 with 96% to go, and then down to 37 with 14%.

Shielding went from 33 with 61% to 33 with 80% and then 33 with 98%

So on 2 deaths I lost 80% of 1 level of exp, aprox 1/2 level of sword and 2/3 level of shielding.

The experience loss is so slight that it would not bother me at all being killed by that high of a level.

The loss of the bp for a very low level is harsh though.

As to the loss of the skills, I haven't trained on this char in a long time, so I don't remember how long it would take me to get those skills back.

BTW. Concerning the very low levels, I am doing a test on the regular servers. I made a new mage and put him on a server where I have absolutely no support. I am finding that he is very poor. I am only carrying 6 health and 6 mana pots, and having a hard time just making enough to buy the premmy spells as I level.

So throw in the loss of eq or bp from an unjust pk, and the effect is probably the roughest.
27.08.2010 18:46:56

Post #28319984

 
Nymet

Inhabitant of Shanera
Profession: Paladin
Level: 56

Badger of Legend of the Republic of the Badgers (Master Platypus)

Posts: 767


Forgot to post my losses a awhile back, ill continuously post my deaths as they come.


Death 1
-------
Killer(s): Benja (lv 67) Dragonas?(unsure)(110)
Assisted:
Blessings?: None

Pre
---
LV 56 (36% left)
ML 14 (93%)
Dist 80 (60%)

Post
----
LV 55 (24% left)
ML 13 (6%)
Dist 79 (9%)


Death 2
-------
Killer(s): Myst'Shurion (lv 78)
Assisted:
Blessings?: None

Pre
---
LV 55 (24% left)
ML 13 (6%)
Dist 79 (9%)

Post
----
LV 55 (99% left)
ML 13 (20%)
Dist 79 (54%)

________________
As the old saying goes... "Fifty NO's and one YES means YES!"
27.08.2010 19:41:11

Post #28320413

 
Enyx Deathweaver

Inhabitant of Berylia
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 190

Szalony of the Warjaty

Posts: 2975


The only thing other than it being protected that I can think of is that you were attacking me prior to me killing you that time, not marked as I still held my white skull.. but still you engaged.
________________
I'm just a playa, and I'm playin' my part. So step to the side, cause your blockin' my shine.
27.08.2010 19:43:58
Quote Post #28320433

 
Alecto Misc

Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17

Posts: 2198


Originally posted by Enyx Deathweaver on 27.08.2010 19:43:58:
> The only thing other than it being protected that I
> can think of is that you were attacking me prior to
> me killing you that time, not marked as I still held
> my white skull.. but still you engaged.

Correct. For that second death I came right out of the temple and started attacking Enyx.

Craban,

Enyx said that when I came out of the temple and attacked him I did not get a yellow skull, so that second death was an unjust for him?

Is that right?

If so, that puts a lot of power in the hands of the person being killed. Go right after your killer and make them kill you 2 more times then they have rs and can be killed by your friends.
27.08.2010 20:42:59

Post #28320946

 
Alecto Misc

Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17

Posts: 2198


Originally posted by Craban on 27.08.2010 12:52:14:

>
> If the death penalty has been changed (factor was <
> 1) you get a message when you die by how much your
> death penalty has been reduced.

It took a few deaths, and I realized I was not seeing that message of how much the death had been reduced.

Finally I found out why. The "Alas..." window covers up the message! I just barely saw "your death w....." in white type behind the alas window.

Is there any way the server log can be saved and shown when you log back in? Put the message in there and this way you can see who was dealing the damage and how much damage you took.

Also, on your own char page, can it show that message on there? That way you can go back and review how much each death was reduced.
27.08.2010 21:35:11
Edited by Alecto Misc
on 27.08.2010 21:36:00

Post #28321364

 
Nymet

Inhabitant of Shanera
Profession: Paladin
Level: 56

Badger of Legend of the Republic of the Badgers (Master Platypus)

Posts: 767


Yea I didnt notice that there was a message box displaying how much losses your actually getting till someone told me in-game, I do wanna try getting myself killed probably shortly to see it for myself, cause of the two times I did die I just didnt even notice, I naturally hit the ok button.
________________
As the old saying goes... "Fifty NO's and one YES means YES!"
27.08.2010 23:56:08

Post #28322520

 
Alecto Misc

Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17

Posts: 2198


- Is the reduction ok for all level ranges?
- Are there ways to abuse this?
- Does it actually help the right people?

One issue that I noticed is the discrepancy of how the skill loss is much more severe than the experience loss, especially when you have good skills. You are highly penalized for improving your skills. This is nothing new, the skill loss has been harsher than experience loss before the FFR and pvp blessings. It just seems more noticeable now.

The effect on the lost experience seemed to be fine with me.

What I feel it does not help with is the financial cost of a death, which is harder on the low level chars that are struggling to get started. Those with higher levels that have more profitable hunts seem to be better able to afford the financial cost.

For the low level that does not have blessings, and do not have higher levels that will provide support, such as those below level 20-25, the loss of the containers makes the death pretty very harsh.

For the lower to mid level chars that are just getting to where they are having profitable hunts, the price of one death has been greatly reduced where it is not that bad. But multiple deaths hurt the bank balance pretty quickly.

So to sum it up, the experience part of it is working well. I would like to see the skills addressed to make them where they recover at the same rate as experience.

What the FFR do not help with is the financial costs, and I feel this impacts the lower to low/mid level chars the most.
28.08.2010 00:25:13

Post #28322767

 
Nymet

Inhabitant of Shanera
Profession: Paladin
Level: 56

Badger of Legend of the Republic of the Badgers (Master Platypus)

Posts: 767


Alecto the death penalty especially money wise is perfect, ofc low lv's arent going to be able to afford such deaths, then again they probably only been playing for 1 month just maybe if they are slow 2 months. You cant expect them to get rich over night to be able to pay for luxurious things such as blessings great armor/weapons and other things. Its one of the perks for (hopefully fairly) playing so long to reach high levels to have large sums of cash to doodle with and gain.


EDIT
----
I agree alecto I just killed myself to see it and had to move the darn window to see the death penalty, plus I agree just put it in the server channel on next log in.
________________
As the old saying goes... "Fifty NO's and one YES means YES!"
28.08.2010 01:00:52
Edited by Nymet
on 28.08.2010 03:03:31

Post #28323026

 
Sir Elleandor

Inhabitant of Calmera
Profession: Master Sorcerer
Level: 49

Ascending of the Avater Force

Posts: 785


As others have said, I wouldn't have seen the message unless I knew to be looking for it. Would be better to be in the server log upon logging back online after the death, or in the pop up text box.

Sir Elleandor

Originally posted by Nymet on 27.08.2010 23:56:08:
> Yea I didnt notice that there was a message box
> displaying how much losses your actually getting till
> someone told me in-game, I do wanna try getting
> myself killed probably shortly to see it for myself,
> cause of the two times I did die I just didnt even
> notice, I naturally hit the ok button.
________________
He helps others most, who shows them how to help themselves.
- A. P. Gouthey
28.08.2010 07:39:17

Post #28324685

 
Craban
Product Manager

Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4

Posts: 4103


  • Originally posted by Enyx Deathweaver on 27.08.2010 18:16:04:

    > I killed Alecto Misc.. and he kept
    > his BP without bless, is this intended?

    No, it is not intended, the FFRs should only work on skill and exp loss, not on the probabilty of item loss. Can you check that again to confirm? If so, it is a bug.

  • Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 28.08.2010 00:25:13: Skill loss vs level loss

    Well, yes, that has often been said. Personally I agree, I also feel that with my very high skilled char but only mid level. This is however an issue that has no direct connection with this test server. I already have that in the back of my mind, maybe we can think of a good way at some point to work on this again.
    ________________
    I'm not a man of too many faces,
    The mask I wear is one.

    (Sting)
    A very good approach on how to play Tibia WITH others rather than AGAINST!
  • 28.08.2010 13:37:00

    Post #28326152

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    Post #28324613 by Sir Elleandor says he died 3 times and did not lose his BP, so he was much luckier than I was.

    On his first death we don't know if blessings were there or not, but it sounds like he did not buy the pvp blessing at all, so for the 2nd and 3rd deaths we have his account of the events that says no bp was lost.

    -----

    Once again, I think that for lower levels that have not bought blessings, when the ffr shows a significant reduction in death loss, it would be best for it to provide some protection for the containers.
    28.08.2010 15:59:09

    Post #28326976

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Personally I agree, I also feel that with my very high skilled char but only mid level. This is however an issue that has no direct connection with this test server

    It has, at my eyes. It would be enough to add an additional FFR reduction due to repeated pvp deaths in a short time, and skills' loss would be, at least in part, balanced.


    Once again, I think that for lower levels that have not bought blessings, when the ffr shows a significant reduction in death loss, it would be best for it to provide some protection for the containers.


    Or... we could think about a cheap puppy-AOL with level requirement "up to".


    Aleppe
    ________________
    INFLICTING PAIN ON GRIEFERS
    PVP BLESSING
    LIMIT CONTAINERS CAP!
    §OLD ACCOUNTS§ Ancients power
    28.08.2010 17:25:02

    Post #28327633

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 28.08.2010 17:25:02:

    >
    > Or... we could think about a cheap puppy-AOL with
    > level requirement "up to".
    >

    SIGNED!!!!!
    28.08.2010 17:30:55

    Post #28327690

     
    Ab Devil

    Inhabitant of Menera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 83

    Posts: 7584


    I thought I'd report ... in the 5 deaths I've taken in lop-sided (unfair) fights, I've only dropped an item once (with no blessings) and haven't dropped a backpack. Not sure if I have been extremely lucky or if it's intended as part of the fair fight death penalty reduction.
    ________________
    Sorry you can't handle the truth... but that's not my problem, it's yours.
    29.08.2010 03:03:24

    Post #28331756

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    I still feel the FFR formula quite unblanced.

    These are the killers lvs required to benefit of the min reduction (20%)and max reduction (80%)

    Victim lv 8 => 20% Killer lv 10 / 80% Killer lv 40
    Victim lv 20 => 20% Killer lv 25 / 80% Killer lv 100
    Victim lv 30 => 20% Killer lv 38 / 80% Killer lv 150
    Victim lv 40 => 20% Killer lv 50 / 80% Killer lv 200
    Victim lv 50 => 20% Killer lv 63 / 80% Killer lv 250
    Victim lv 60 => 20% Killer lv 75 / 80% Killer lv 300
    Victim lv 70 => 20% Killer lv 88 / 80% Killer lv 350
    Victim lv 80 => 20% Killer lv 100 / 80% Killer lv 400
    Victim lv 90 => 20% Killer lv 113 / 80% Killer lv 450
    Victim lv 100 => 20% Killer lv 125 / 80% Killer lv 500

    I won't recall here the formula posted in focus group discussion, but I'm still convinced that it would fit perfectly to FFR, given that it would split reductions far better than the actual one does.


    Aleppe
    ________________
    INFLICTING PAIN ON GRIEFERS
    PVP BLESSING
    LIMIT CONTAINERS CAP!
    §OLD ACCOUNTS§ Ancients power
    29.08.2010 08:25:52

    Post #28332839

     
    Espectromaster

    Inhabitant of Candia
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 30

    Posts: 13


    I've killed this character with Aleppe orange skulled to it a lot of times and being it unblessed and yellow skulled.

    As result, even being equipped with 2 bps and full equipment, it lost the bp in bp slot after 4 deaths and the bp in ammunition slot after further 3.
    No equipment was dropped in any death.
    30.08.2010 16:48:15

    Post #28343584

     
    Craban
    Product Manager

    Inhabitant of Arcania
    Profession: None
    Level: 4

    Posts: 4103


    Improvements are underway, see first post for details.
    ________________
    I'm not a man of too many faces,
    The mask I wear is one.

    (Sting)
    A very good approach on how to play Tibia WITH others rather than AGAINST!
    30.08.2010 17:12:58

    Post #28343819

     

    Página 2:

    Nymet

    Inhabitant of Shanera
    Profession: Paladin
    Level: 56

    Badger of Legend of the Republic of the Badgers (Master Platypus)

    Posts: 767


    @Craban

    what do you mean by "- The reduction message will now be shown at the same time with the "You are dead" message so you instantly see that there is something different."

    Isnt that what it is now? As you die it appears simultaneously just that its hidden behind the "Alas you are dead..." message box.
    ________________
    As the old saying goes... "Fifty NO's and one YES means YES!"
    30.08.2010 19:06:35

    Post #28344829

     
    Magus Firefly

    Inhabitant of Refugia
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 225

    Smilodon of the Sixth Extinction

    Posts: 5151


    Hi

    @ Alecto Misc:

    We have tested your scenario in thais with the fire elementals attacking the ds. Clearly possible.

    I tried to kill a ds with explosion (higher max damage then icicle), but it was impossible even with combo with wand.

    After that I summoned a minotaur archer and I managed to "one hit" the ds with my explosion/wand combo together.

    So its very difficult to escape such a summon trap. But it takes ages to kill a very high level. If he has any friend online he will for sure survive long enough. (of course only if the summons attack alone. A few mages sding and he is history)

    Level 100 is of course in great danger to die at a bad combo, but I had no real problems.
    ________________
    Solve the depot trashing problem
    30.08.2010 22:58:46

    Post #28347058

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    Magus,

    thanks.

    I was thinking about that e-beam you shot when I was laying it out. That would not work for the victim, because while it would kill the ds, it would hit the high level "meat shield" and get the victim a white skull.

    This would mean the mean shield would make a great blocker because the victim would be unable to swap, and with the ws, the whole team could attack for a "justified" kill.

    A few big points I was looking for was to whether the trap would even have a chance at working, and it sounds like it would.

    Thanks!
    31.08.2010 00:07:57

    Post #28347717

     
    Craban
    Product Manager

    Inhabitant of Arcania
    Profession: None
    Level: 4

    Posts: 4103


    Originally posted by Nymet on 30.08.2010 19:06:35:
    > @Craban
    >
    > what do you mean by "- The reduction message will now
    > be shown at the same time with the "You are dead"
    > message so you instantly see that there is something
    > different."
    >
    > Isnt that what it is now? As you die it appears
    > simultaneously just that its hidden behind the "Alas
    > you are dead..." message box.

    Not quite, right now, the "you are dead" message comes first and only a few seconds later comes the other message which is why many have not seen it because they do not wait that long before relogging. After the patch today, there will not be 2 consecutive messages but all will be in one message. I hope this will be better.
    ________________
    I'm not a man of too many faces,
    The mask I wear is one.

    (Sting)
    A very good approach on how to play Tibia WITH others rather than AGAINST!
    31.08.2010 09:03:03

    Post #28350629

     
    Craban
    Product Manager

    Inhabitant of Arcania
    Profession: None
    Level: 4

    Posts: 4103


    Fixes online, see first post.
    ________________
    I'm not a man of too many faces,
    The mask I wear is one.

    (Sting)
    A very good approach on how to play Tibia WITH others rather than AGAINST!
    01.09.2010 20:00:50

    Post #28364398

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    1. Aquila Sognante lv 26 Exp 257.749 without twist/any blessing/aol
      Killer: Paem Aela lv 74

      Reduction: 65% Final Exp 252 101OK
    2. 11:18 Aquila Sognante [26]: yes11:18 Eremo: So receive the wisdom of solitude, pilgrim.

      wisdom no aol no twist
      Reduction 65% Final exp 247 185OK
    3. 11:24 Aquila Sognante [26]: yes 11:24 Eremo: So receive the wisdom of solitude, pilgrim. 11:28 Aquila Sognante [26]: yes
      11:28 Brewster: So receive the protection of the twist of fate, pilgrim.

      twist + wisdom no aol

      Reduction :65% Final exp: 242 344 OK
    4. twist + wisdom + aol

      11:37 Aquila Sognante [26]: yes
      11:37 Brewster: So receive the protection of the twist of fate, pilgrim.

      Reduction 65% Final exp 237 578OK
    5. 11:38 Aquila Sognante [26]: yes 11:38 Brewster: So receive the protection of the twist of fate, pilgrim.

      Killer: Armagheddon lv 42 Victim: Aquila Sognante aol + wisdom of solitude + twist of fate lv 26

      Reduction: 39% exp 229 399
    6. Killer Armagheddon lv 42 Victim Aquila Sognante without aol nor wisdom of solitude nor twist

      Reduction 41% final exp 221 702
    = level change, nothing else


    I'd say that we are on "GO" with FFR, although I've still some concerns about the victims/kills level ranges for death penalty reduction purposes.


    Aleppe
    ________________
    INFLICTING PAIN ON GRIEFERS
    PVP BLESSING
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    10.09.2010 12:17:09
    Edited by Aleppe
    on 10.09.2010 12:17:48

    Post #28436378

     
    Craban
    Product Manager

    Inhabitant of Arcania
    Profession: None
    Level: 4

    Posts: 4103


    Some fixed done.

    Public feedback can start here in a few minutes.
    ________________
    I'm not a man of too many faces,
    The mask I wear is one.

    (Sting)
    A very good approach on how to play Tibia WITH others rather than AGAINST!
    10.09.2010 18:33:43

    Post #28438620

     
    Aissy

    Inhabitant of Elysia
    Profession: Elite Knight
    Level: 239

    Salvation of the Cruoris

    Posts: 561


    I tried out this today,
    me as a level 245 ek on test, got attacked by a 101 ek

    he attacked me unjustified and i killed him alone justified and still he got a reduction of 59%

    I dont see how this is fair at all.

    First of he attacked me unjustified by taking white skull on me and then he got killed, why should he get a reduction at all for this?

    Second, even tho im alot higher level than him, he was killed by a single player. The reduction for this should not be so high as of 59%.

    I would like some changes to the fair fight rules to be made:
    -Players you have been aggressive against should be excluded from all calculations leading to a reduction
    -The amount of players killing you should matter more then their levels currently do
    11.09.2010 17:33:09

    Post #28446176

     
    Cathbad

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 103

    Posts: 132


    Players you have been aggressive against should be excluded from all calculations leading to a reduction

    Not agreed. PVP fights need to be encouraged, and since there can't be any justified pvp event (out of party ones) without a previous unjustified pvp event, even skulled players need to benefit of FFR reductions.


    The amount of players killing you should matter more then their levels currently do

    Not agreed. Doing so, high level chars (requiring teams to be fragged) would suffer, proportionally, less death penalties than low-middle leveled ones.
    ________________
    Ancients may be gone, but their magic is not.
    Time ago I dreamed magic for the moon, and she still dances for me now as she did then. Cathbad is my name, and I'm still dreaming.
    11.09.2010 17:40:00

    Post #28446223

     
    Maverix Armada

    Inhabitant of Antica
    Profession: Royal Paladin
    Level: 133

    Overlord of the Nine Inch Runes (Event Planner)

    Posts: 532


    I think it's a really nice thing !! ^^

    Mave~
    ________________
    My Blood is Part of An Endangered Specie, The Anticans.
    Banish Botters? No. DELETE BOTTERS! ,Don't give us 20 unjusts for killing 1 guy!
    12.09.2010 05:04:29

    Post #28450647

     
    Craban
    Product Manager

    Inhabitant of Arcania
    Profession: None
    Level: 4

    Posts: 4103


    Here too, it seems that no big flaws or weaknesses have been found. Practically no feedback seems to suggest that it is ok as it is, so no reason to change anything on this feature.
    ________________
    I'm not a man of too many faces,
    The mask I wear is one.

    (Sting)
    A very good approach on how to play Tibia WITH others rather than AGAINST!
    13.09.2010 12:09:08

    Post #28459996

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    Originally posted by Craban on 13.09.2010 12:09:08:
    > Here too, it seems that no big flaws or weaknesses
    > have been found. Practically no feedback seems to
    > suggest that it is ok as it is, so no reason to
    > change anything on this feature.

    The exp protections are great. IMHO the skills loss could be adjusted a little to make it the same to recover as the exp. But I understand that will have to be done at a later time.

    The only big weakness and "flaw" is one that has been brought up before, that low levels containers are not protected.

    I was thinking about this, and in a way it is putting a "target" on their backs by those that are killing others for loot. Just ambush a low level as they are heading back to town after a long hunt, and you know they will drop their bp with all their loot.

    And it is the low levels that suffer the worst from this, because they already have the money problems as they are just starting out.
    13.09.2010 16:38:56

    Post #28461528

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 13.09.2010 16:38:56:

    > The only big weakness and "flaw" is one that has been
    > brought up before, that low levels containers are not
    > protected.

    x2
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    13.09.2010 16:54:32

     
    Post #28461648

     
    Memphiz

    Inhabitant of Valoria
    Profession: Royal Paladin
    Level: 162

    One of the Renegade

    Posts: 1322


    Originally posted by Craban on 13.09.2010 12:09:08:
    > Here too, it seems that no big flaws or weaknesses
    > have been found. Practically no feedback seems to
    > suggest that it is ok as it is, so no reason to
    > change anything on this feature.

    Here's a big weakness:

    Killing a high level knight, in an open battle or even on a sneak, we need much power to get him down in 1 combo. Even more if he gets sio'd by lets say a level 50 druid.

    Means we need to take 10-15 unjusts on him (I'm talking about a level 220-250 knight).

    Means with full bless + twist of fate, the knight loses like what? 5-10% of his level? and 20k cash.

    But the killing team, they get 10-15 unjusts. Means the Knight can come back as often as he likes till we get red skulls and eventually black skulls.



    I suggest:

    Twist of Fate - only makes normal blessings not dissapear if you die 50% or more by players. The actual experience loss reducement should stay the same as with normal 5 blessings on current rules (means you can lose 2 levels max if I'm not mistaking).

    This means that a death won't result in expensive losses, yet you do lose power in experience/skills as you should.

    Because you won't have expensive losses, it means you can keep the other 80k to buy supplies to get your levels back.

    //Memphiz
    13.09.2010 20:51:12

    Post #28463632

     
    Ab Devil

    Inhabitant of Menera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 83

    Posts: 7584


    An issue with the current fair fight rules I am finding is that, some people are actively exploiting it, that is low level players, knowing they won't loss much of anything, are intentionally doing actions that lead to large mobs killing them.

    Players who initiate fights, should not be subject to fair fight rules protection when they die. Intentionally aggressive people generally do so thinking they are going to win... and thus they don't need the extra protection...

    As for determining what is and what is not a fair fight... a few things should be considered.. Is it a one on one battle (if it is, then there should be a 30-40 level range where full loss occurs) ... but if it's a 2 or more players killing one, then it's not a fair fight and the protections should kick in.
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    13.09.2010 21:18:41

    Post #28463888

     
    Deathrider Mot

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Paladin
    Level: 20

    Posts: 389


    Erases the point of PVP, which is exp loss

    Please allow open-pvp players to transfer to a new server type with death penalties and higher unjust kill limits, or most of us will lose interest. Even the test server is kind of boring since it takes many deaths for anyone to even risk losing 1 level.

    you get a red skull, your opponents lose 5 minutes of exp/cash.

    Wow. No point to even logging in...
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    14.09.2010 01:05:33
    Edited by Deathrider Mot
    on 14.09.2010 01:07:47

    Post #28465627

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    @ Memphiz:

    Means with full bless + twist of fate, the knight loses like what? 5-10% of his level? and 20k cash.
    But the killing team, they get 10-15 unjusts. Means the Knight can come back as often as he likes till we get red skulls and eventually black skulls.


    That's why I've suggested to reduce the unjusts x frag due to assisted kills: doing so we would have a way to reduce the ammount of unjusts x frag based on strategy and pvp skills.


    @ Ab Devil:

    Players who initiate fights, should not be subject to fair fight rules protection when they die. Intentionally aggressive people generally do so thinking they are going to win... and thus they don't need the extra protection...

    Open pvp environment is based on non consensual fights: there can't be a justified pvp event without a previous unjustified one. Following your reasoning, we would punish just those players who actually boost the pvp environment dynamics.


    @ Deathrider Mot:

    Erases the point of PVP, which is exp loss

    No PVP platform can survive in the long run if it works like a loss, and all actual - dying - open/hardcore severs showed it clearly through years.


    Please allow open-pvp players to transfer to a new server type with death penalties and higher unjust kill limits, or most of us will lose interest

    That would be senseless: in few months those severs would die like the actual ones already did.


    you get a red skull, your opponents lose 5 minutes of exp/cash.

    It does mean that your oppenents are smarter than you, nothing else.


    Aleppe
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    14.09.2010 08:10:53
    Edited by Aleppe
    on 14.09.2010 08:12:53

    Post #28467160

     
    Samanota

    Inhabitant of Luminera
    Profession: Druid
    Level: 125

    Deathrow of the Enigma

    Posts: 1230


    Leave all the death penalties as they are on the game already, don't need to change them at all.
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    14.09.2010 08:17:57

    Post #28467183

     
    Mazarak

    Inhabitant of Solera
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 131

    One of the Prophecy

    Posts: 144


    Seriously, this change does not need to be implemented. After playing on the test server for a while, and dying many times, I started to realise that it would be what real Tibia is going to turn into - a test server without free cash. People will start to not care about dying because they don't lose anything. Exp lost in a pvp death could be made back in about 20mins~ hunting WITH profit, and probably even make the 20k back for the pvp blessing.

    What you have to understand is a big thrill about pvp is dying and trying to stay alive as you currently lose a decent amount in the way of bless cash and exp. Without having a harsh penalty when you die, pvp in this game WILL lose that excitement.

    CiP you can't take the opinions of the 5 or 6 people posting on these forums as the general opinion of the THOUSANDS of people that play this game. Almost everyone I have talked to about these implementations have disliked them. Please, please, PLEASE rethink these changes.
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    14.09.2010 13:20:56

    Post #28468155

     
    Samanota

    Inhabitant of Luminera
    Profession: Druid
    Level: 125

    Deathrow of the Enigma

    Posts: 1230


    Originally posted by Mazarak on 14.09.2010 13:20:56:
    > What you have to understand is a big thrill about pvp
    > is dying and trying to stay alive as you currently
    > lose a decent amount in the way of bless cash and
    > exp. Without having a harsh penalty when you die, pvp
    > in this game WILL lose that excitement.

    This guy is absolutely correct. If the death penalty is changed to what it is like, on the test server, the game will be boring after 2 weeks, and most people will quit.

    You'll be making the game, much like an OT server, where nobody cares about dying, and the PVP will turn into rubbish wars.

    If you implement the new death penalty, you, and your customer support, have serious problems with your game lasting any longer.

    Be reasonable.
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    14.09.2010 13:41:08

    Post #28468270

     

    Página 3:

    Max Splitskull

    Inhabitant of Zanera
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 15

    Posts: 18


    The current excessive and harsh pvp death penalty is surely not somthing that everyone 'enjoys'
    as Alecto has pointed out in another thread if this were the case then why do MOST people buy blessings / aol's?

    I'd suggest if any particular player wants or enjoys a harsh death then all they need to do is play without any blessings and the deaths they will have should be harsh enuf to satisfy them, right?

    At least with this feature the players who don't want such a harsh pvp death don't have to have it and the ones who do can choose that aswell by playing without bless so everyones a winner I guess.

    Great feature btw
    15.09.2010 01:31:24

    Post #28473318

     
    Memphiz

    Inhabitant of Valoria
    Profession: Royal Paladin
    Level: 162

    One of the Renegade

    Posts: 1322


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 14.09.2010 08:10:53:
    > @ Memphiz:
    >
    > Means with full bless + twist of fate, the knight
    > loses like what? 5-10% of his level? and 20k cash.
    > But the killing team, they get 10-15 unjusts. Means
    > the Knight can come back as often as he likes till we
    > get red skulls and eventually black skulls.

    >
    > That's why I've suggested to reduce the unjusts x
    > frag due to assisted kills: doing so we would have a
    > way to reduce the ammount of unjusts x frag based on
    > strategy and pvp skills.
    >
    > Aleppe


    Sounds like a good alternative to have a serious look at (Cipsoft!)

    Either adjust the fair fight rules to make them lose more experience/skills because this is just nonsense... losing only 5% of a level

    OR

    Adjust the amount of unjustified kills per frag. And then I'm NOT talking about 15 unjusts, no I mean MAX 5!!

    Or do both , keep 7-10 unjusts, and let people lose at least 50% of a level.

    But how it is now on the test server is just ridiculous.

    If you take skull in a city (Thais for example) and you get killed as 162 royal paladin by about 10-15 people, which can happen in real tibia aswell, I had to die like 8 times before losing level 162... this is ridiculous.

    //Memphiz
    15.09.2010 01:41:10
    Edited by Memphiz
    on 15.09.2010 01:42:29

    Post #28473362

     
    Irhi

    Inhabitant of Iridia
    Profession: Royal Paladin
    Level: 146

    Posts: 58


    yepp i got suprised how little you loose on deaths. i died currently 2-3 times and i doubt i lost my level yet xD
    15.09.2010 02:33:27

    Post #28473650

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    @ Hardcore PVP servers:

    Repeated pvp deaths should lead to lighter penalties, given that in this kind of server there is no feature limiting the times a player or a gang can kill a target. FFRs won't solve any problem in this kind of servers if they won't rely even on the number of repeated pvp deaths.


    Aleppe
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    16.09.2010 09:17:36

    Post #28482980

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 16.09.2010 09:17:36:
    > @ Hardcore PVP servers:
    >
    > Repeated pvp deaths should lead to lighter penalties,
    > given that in this kind of server there is no feature
    > limiting the times a player or a gang can kill a
    > target. FFRs won't solve any problem in this kind of
    > servers if they won't rely even on the number of
    > repeated pvp deaths.
    >
    >
    > Aleppe

    IMHO, the biggest flaw with the FFR is that the containers/eq have no protection for lower levels. And on pvp-e servers where it is even harder to hunt and gain money, this is going to be even more pronounced for low levels that will be left "naked" and unarmed after repeated deaths.
    16.09.2010 16:08:11

    Post #28484963

     
    Nymet

    Inhabitant of Shanera
    Profession: Paladin
    Level: 56

    Badger of Legend of the Republic of the Badgers (Master Platypus)

    Posts: 767


    Yes that can be a problem with Hardcore PvP servers, but however I wouldnt tread on PvP-E servers on fix that is server specific solution for them. Its Hardcore for a reason, and you arent expected to stay low level forever either.

    I personally believe FFR is all that is needed for them, for me as I do partially play Dolera from time to time I obviously haven't staked out over there in awhile due to constant deaths devastating all the EXP I had gain, the item recovery was semi easy in terms of recouping what I have lost in terms of EQ not BP's. The only difficult thing about it was recouping the costs of the potions I bought, that's the only thing that stung me in terms of my bank.

    However feel it is unnecessary to protect items/BP's when blessings already does that bidding, and if you cant afford blessings? its the same across PvP servers why should you be different even if you have a 200% more chance of dying? Plus now with the PvP blessings it should be even more affordable to keep all of your blessings without having to pay a massive cost. PvP-E follows the notion of the survival of the fittest, and I prefer it stays like that, FFR does alleviate the pain of the lower lv's so that have a better chance at rising against the fittest but it still isnt guaranteed.
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    16.09.2010 19:35:53

    Post #28486457

     
    Sir Avernum

    Inhabitant of Lunara
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 143

    Evolution of the Hybridus (Maximus Decimus Meridius)

    Posts: 125


    I can't catch one thing. I want to explain it on an example. lvl 20 gonna be killed by lvl 100 and somone with 300lvl heal him so this lvl 300 may be counted and overstate exp/skills looses of this 20 lvl? Maybe this lvl 20 need to be in party with this 300 to make this situation gonna happen.
    17.09.2010 11:49:01

    Post #28491717

     
    Magus Firefly

    Inhabitant of Refugia
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 225

    Smilodon of the Sixth Extinction

    Posts: 5151


    Hi

    Originally posted by Sir Avernum on 17.09.2010 11:49:01:
    > I can't catch one thing. I want to explain it on an
    > example. lvl 20 gonna be killed by lvl 100 and somone
    > with 300lvl heal him so this lvl 300 may be counted
    > and overstate exp/skills looses of this 20 lvl? Maybe
    > this lvl 20 need to be in party with this 300 to make
    > this situation gonna happen.

    In starting post from Craban:

    ..Fair Fight Rules will no longer count healers / buffers if they do not do anything else (attack or assist)

    So no need to worry about healers.
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    17.09.2010 12:26:52

    Post #28491892

     
    Sir Avernum

    Inhabitant of Lunara
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 143

    Evolution of the Hybridus (Maximus Decimus Meridius)

    Posts: 125


    Thank you for your answer.
    Didn't know about that has changed.
    17.09.2010 12:58:32
    Edited by Sir Avernum
    on 17.09.2010 12:58:47

    Post #28492051

     
    Byndys

    Inhabitant of Lunara
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 150

    Devastation of the Dark Echoes

    Posts: 74


    What about mages with mana shield? as far as i know only the hits on health points count towards a frag, so you can basically have 30 people nuke your mana shield and only have 4 guys on your deathlist to count towards the FFR. So will 'mana shooters' get counted with the FFR aswell or not? cause it's not really fair compared to knights and paladins who wont use manashield and thus get everyone who shot on them for their FFR.
    17.09.2010 13:46:37

    Post #28492314

     
    Azran Laran

    Inhabitant of Dolera
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 25

    Posts: 6


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 14.09.2010 08:10:53:
    > @ Deathrider Mot:
    >
    > Erases the point of PVP, which is exp loss
    >
    > No PVP platform can survive in the long run if it
    > works like a loss, and all actual - dying -
    > open/hardcore severs showed it clearly through years.
    >
    >
    >
    > Please allow open-pvp players to transfer to a new
    > server type with death penalties and higher unjust
    > kill limits, or most of us will lose interest

    >
    > That would be senseless: in few months those severs
    > would die like the actual ones already did.
    >
    >
    >
    > Aleppe

    You ever think, damn, maybe the servers have been dying because CIP keeps trying to fix things that aren't broken. With every patch less players are playing, clearly the community has shown we don't like all these big changes.

    When ultima online (the game tibia is based off of) killed it's pvp the games community shrunk down to about a 1/4th of what it was, the game never recovered.
    17.09.2010 14:09:38

    Post #28492408

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Originally posted by Azran Laran on 17.09.2010 14:09:38:
    > Originally posted by Aleppe on 14.09.2010
    > 08:10:53
    :
    > > @ Deathrider Mot:
    > >
    > > Erases the point of PVP, which is exp loss
    > >
    > > No PVP platform can survive in the long run if it
    > > works like a loss, and all actual - dying -
    > > open/hardcore severs showed it clearly through
    > years.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Please allow open-pvp players to transfer to a
    > new
    > > server type with death penalties and higher unjust
    > > kill limits, or most of us will lose interest

    > >
    > > That would be senseless: in few months those
    > severs
    > > would die like the actual ones already did.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Aleppe
    >
    > You ever think, damn, maybe the servers have been
    > dying because CIP keeps trying to fix things that
    > aren't broken. With every patch less players are
    > playing, clearly the community has shown we don't
    > like all these big changes.

    I think that the only true plague in pvp system are cheaters of all kinds, from cavebotters to aimbotters.
    Yes, the PVP environment could be better and some features wouldn't be required if they wouldn't exist, but since THEY DO EXIST features have to be tuned accordingly.

    Do not blame CIP: blame botters.


    Aleppe
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    17.09.2010 14:25:58

    Post #28492490

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    Originally posted by Byndys on 17.09.2010 13:46:37:
    > What about mages with mana shield? as far as i know
    > only the hits on health points count towards a frag,
    > so you can basically have 30 people nuke your mana
    > shield and only have 4 guys on your deathlist to
    > count towards the FFR. So will 'mana shooters' get
    > counted with the FFR aswell or not? cause it's not
    > really fair compared to knights and paladins who wont
    > use manashield and thus get everyone who shot on them
    > for their FFR.


    Perhaps I am wrong, but it is my understanding that it goes by PvP DAMAGE. So whether they hit hp or mp it is causing damage, so it counts.
    17.09.2010 16:09:19
    Quote Post #28493094

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 17.09.2010 16:09:19:
    > Perhaps I am wrong, but it is my understanding that
    > it goes by PvP DAMAGE. So whether they hit hp or mp
    > it is causing damage, so it counts.

    Correct


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    17.09.2010 16:16:56
    Quote Post #28493139

     
    Dark Clouds

    Inhabitant of Pacera
    Profession: Sorcerer
    Level: 16

    Posts: 13
    Thumbs down 

    fix thing like sheep killers while trainin an many other probles like loot thief b4 worry bout any thinks else
    19.09.2010 07:32:54

    Post #28504892

     
    Elias Vidfamne

    Inhabitant of Galana
    Profession: Elite Knight
    Level: 169

    Leader of the Vicious (Elias)

    Posts: 640


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 17.09.2010 16:16:56:
    > Originally posted by Alecto Misc on 17.09.2010
    > 16:09:19
    :
    > > Perhaps I am wrong, but it is my understanding
    > that
    > > it goes by PvP DAMAGE. So whether they hit hp or
    > mp
    > > it is causing damage, so it counts.
    >
    > Correct
    >
    >
    > Aleppe

    So if a mage with manashield dies by 20 people but only get hits by 3 people while on hp, does he get 80% reduce?

    edit:
    oh, i scrolled up the thread and found answer, thx anyway
    20.09.2010 09:17:07
    Edited by Elias Vidfamne
    on 20.09.2010 09:18:57

    Post #28512214

     
    Aleppe

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 147

    Posts: 5847


    Originally posted by Xin San on 21.09.2010 11:42:18:
    > Is there any information, how exactly the reduction
    > will work for specified situation to show
    > differences? For example a character lv100 dying from
    > another lv100 and the same one dying from being
    > killed by two lv100 or one lv200 characters.

    The factor is calculated by the level of the victim devided by the level of the killer (or the sum of the levels of all killers)

    Example: 4 level 45 mages kill a level 90

    --> 90 / (45 + 45 + 45 + 45) = 90 / 180 = 0,5
    --> The guy who died gets a message with his death that his death penalty was reduced by 50% because the battle was to his disadvantage.

    . The minal reduction is 20%
    - The Maximum reduction is 80%


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    21.09.2010 11:54:06

    Post #28523100

     
    Xin San

    Inhabitant of Nerana
    Profession: Master Sorcerer
    Level: 139

    Chieftain of the Yin Yang

    Posts: 661


    Maybe stupid question, does this rule works for death caused in party by party mate or only to fights where enemy is not a party member?
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    21.09.2010 15:26:15

    Post #28524174

     
    Liyn

    Inhabitant of Amera
    Profession: Elder Druid
    Level: 101

    Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

    Posts: 874


    Originally posted by Aleppe on 21.09.2010 11:54:06:

    > . The minal reduction is 20%
    > - The Maximum reduction is 80%

    Heya Aleppe,
    Is there really a minimal reduction set? Quoting from Craban's first post:


    Originally posted by Craban on 27.08.2010 12:52:14:

    > The death penalty will not be increased, so if this
    > is >1, the factor stays 1.

    And it says nothing about minimal reduction. I was just wondering cause I was explaining the system on one of the promoted fansites and now I'm confused.
    Probably it's me missing something though.

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    21.09.2010 15:44:20

    Post #28524398

     
    Alecto Misc

    Inhabitant of Danubia
    Profession: Knight
    Level: 17

    Posts: 2198


    I believe what Aleppe was trying to say with that Liyn is that your minimum death penalty will be 20%, you will not have a "free" death with no loss at all.

    So the max death loss reduction is 80%, your minimum death penalty will be 20%.
    21.09.2010 16:05:38

    Post #28524649

     
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