Craban
Product Manager

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Posts: 4103

What is it?

All it means is that if you paralyze someone or just help trapping someone who then dies, you will also be listed as killer but you will not suffer any repercussions for it. This kill you will see marked as "assisted" in a neutral colour in your kills list.

What should be tested?

Since we will not have a website at the beginning, there is really nothing much you can test at the beginning. I will check whether assisted kills are correctly entered into the database, you just test the rest.

Bugs:

- On Optional PvP, non-war characters can get an assisted kill by standing beside a victim. Non-war assisted kills will therefore be removed and if a war character acts only as assist, we will list that as war related kill.

Proposals:

- Separate the killers and the assisters in the death list on the website.

Fixes Tue, 12:30 CEST:

- We will extend this check to also include those into the calculation of "assisting killers" for the kill list and the FFRs that have shot an mwall / wild growth that also blocked the victim upon death.

Fixes Fri 9.10. 18:00 CEST:

- If you help trapping yourself with a magic wall or similar, you will now not be counted as assisted killer anymore.

Fixes Tue 9.14. 13:30 CEST:

- Assisted kills are now displayed on the website in the character deaths list in a seperate line so they can be distinguished from killers.
- On Optional PvP, assisted kills will be listed as war related because they can only be produced by people who are in the same war.
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Aleppe

Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147

Posts: 5847

you will not suffer any repercussions for it

Is that statement untouchable?


Aleppe
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Borr Henceforth
Senator

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Level: 49

Ruberan and member of the Henceforth Family (Librarian)

Posts: 2853

Craban, what if I am with my friend, both trapped next to eachother... if I die in the trap, will my friend be listed as assisting? I mean... that would be bad...

Craban
Product Manager

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Posts: 4103

Originally posted by Borr Henceforth on 28.08.2010 17:38:11:
> Craban, what if I am with my friend, both trapped
> next to eachother... if I die in the trap, will my
> friend be listed as assisting? I mean... that would
> be bad...

Yes he would, simply because we cannot teach the server to really know who is friend and who is enemy, and after all, if you were trapped, you both were indeed also part of the trap for the other, meaning you did indeed hinder each others movements.

@ Aleppe: Nothing is untouchable but as you remember we discussed a lot about all the abuses that can come from repercussions for just standing somewhere that it is unlikely you will find an argument to bring the older ideas of punishments back. But go ahead, have a try.
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Aleppe

Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147

Posts: 5847

That it is unlikely you will find an argument to bring the older ideas of punishments back

I use my SDs when people think that I'm out of supplies, not before .


Yes he would, simply because we cannot teach the server to really know who is friend and who is enemy, and after all, if you were trapped, you both were indeed also part of the trap for the other, meaning you did indeed hinder each others movements

Yes, one can be trapped to trap, but not performing any offensive action, with the amazing swap feature, he will be able to find his way in few seconds without troubles: if not, either the whole swap feature is senseless or that player is particulary dumb, hence he deserves an assisted skull.


if you paralyze someone or just help trapping someone who then dies, you will also be listed as killer but you will not suffer any repercussions for it.

I totally agree. Which is the difference between to paralize, to trap or to step on somebody else rune field? All are active actions which bring drawbacks to the passive player, but while the 1st 2 affect passive player's conditions quite marginally, the 3rd marks him.

We need more assisted skulls attributions!

If somebody steps on an unmarked char rune field, and the resulting skulled char would be killed, there is no reason on the Earth for which he shouldn't get at least an assisted skull. Equally, if an unmarked character receives an indirect damage (= area) by another unmarked one, and the resulted skulled char gets fragged, that initially damaged char should receive an assisted skull aswell.

Not only: who said that just the ones who dealt damages in the last 60 seconds contributed to the frag? What's about all those supplies wasted by the victim to heal and fight back those chars attacking him before those famous 60 seconds? Within a same marking (White - yellow) event, all pvp damage dealers should count for assisted skull attribution.

Resuming: paralizing, trapping, stepping on unmarked char field rune, receiving area damage being unmarked from unmarked, dealing pvp damage in the same pvp skull-marking event should result in an assisted skull.

Now you're waiting for something like: 'n' assisted skulls = 1 unjust, don't you?

Nope. Here you are: 1 frag = (20 - 'assisted skulls') unjusts - Min 2

which, translated in words, would mean : more pvp skills = less unjusts x frag (impossible to kill HL without team-up)

setting:

2 assisted skulls within 24 hours or 4 assisted skulls within a week or ...
taken on the same victim = REVENGE SKULL


Aleppe
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Alecto Misc

Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17

Posts: 2198

Originally posted by Aleppe on 28.08.2010 19:27:30:
>
> 2 assisted skulls within 24 hours or 4 assisted
> skulls within a week or ...
> taken on the same victim = REVENGE SKULL
>

interesting idea. I would be open to further discussions about this if others are also open to discussing it.

At this late stage it might have to be something for "phase 2".

Borr Henceforth
Senator

Inhabitant of Rubera
Profession: Knight
Level: 49

Ruberan and member of the Henceforth Family (Librarian)

Posts: 2853

Somehow I have the feeling that the skull system can only develop in one direction: the complicated one.

Aleppe

Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147

Posts: 5847

Complicated? Hmm, MANUAL I'd say.

@ Alecto:

Phase 2? Let me repeat it: if we won't be able to take away from players' mouths the "20 unjusts affair" we'll fail.

Nevertheless, yes, in phase 2 we'll need to talk deeper about revenge/assisted skulls VS the right to call to war.


Aleppe
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Craban
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Originally posted by Aleppe on 28.08.2010 19:27:30:

> setting:
>
> 2 assisted skulls within 24 hours or 4 assisted
> skulls within a week or ...
> taken on the same victim = REVENGE SKULL
>
>
> Aleppe

Ok, now I got the direction in which you want to touch this. That is something that I am generally open for. In order to keep things reasonably simple this time, I would like to consider this for the war discussion since on the one hand, this would be interesting to attribute somehow to the war system (as benefit) and it would also let us be quicker with this first step if we do not do too big changes this late.

We'll come back to this.

Apart from that: We will probably add a website to the test tomorrow, so we can a) also check the assisted kills and b) try things out with the war system too.
________________

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Craban
Product Manager

Inhabitant of Arcania
Profession: None
Level: 4

Posts: 4103

I forgot: We have one upcoming improvement here, see first post for details.
________________

I'm not a man of too many faces, The mask I wear is one. (Sting) A very good approach on how to play Tibia WITH others rather than AGAINST!

Aleppe

Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147

Posts: 5847

We will extend this check to also include those into the calculation of "assisting killers" for the kill list and the FFRs that have shot an mwall / wild growth that also blocked the victim upon death

Fair enough!


In order to keep things reasonably simple this time, I would like to consider this for the war discussion since on the one hand, this would be interesting to attribute somehow to the war system (as benefit) and it would also let us be quicker with this first step if we do not do too big changes this late.


Agreed: Assisted Skulls should count even for the right to call to war your enemy, not forgetting that without making them related even to Revenge Skulls in future, people would start to use guildless chars to avoid the war-system drawback.


We will probably add a website to the test tomorrow, so we can a) also check the assisted kills and b) try things out with the war system too.

We are ready!


Aleppe
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Craban
Product Manager

Inhabitant of Arcania
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Posts: 4103

Some fixed done.

Public feedback can start here in a few minutes.
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Clubster

Inhabitant of Antica
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 211

Circle of Light of the Nightmare Knights (Beast)

Posts: 268

ok this has happen twice today where i got an assisted kill on one of my friends it shows up as an assisted kill under my name but if you look him up it show i was in on the kill just because i was close to him when he died i dont like this idea



Sep 11 2010, 02:43:36 CEST Slain at Level 154 by Clubster, Dram Twen, Grelath, Looprevil Drarreg, Mokyn, Rulle glad and Stan lvah.
Sep 11 2010, 00:15:01 CEST Slain at Level 154 by Clubster, Faerie Lord, Gan'si, Kalendell, Royall Wizard and Snuffer Moon.



Sep 11 2010, 00:15:01 CEST Killed Sir slaughter at Level 154 assisted
Sep 11 2010, 02:43:36 CEST Killed Sir slaughter at Level 154 assisted

now if i was an assisted why am i showing up at part of the killers under his name?
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Aleppe

Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147

Posts: 5847

I've checked different solutions, and the bug about double killer + assisted for single pvp event appears to be fixed. \o/


@ Clubster:

next time do not trap your friend and you won't receive an assisted skull.


Aleppe
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Liyn

Inhabitant of Amera
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 101

Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

Posts: 874

While I like the idea, there is something wrong with it.. I have a nice amount of assisted kills just for walking by the person who was running away from the killers. Yet I'm listed in his death list just the same as the attackers. It might get people in trouble. It would be better if the death list showed: Killed at level XX by Player A, Player B, Player C with assistance of Player D and Player E.


Liyn

EDIT: Ah, and when I was trapping a person in 1 sqm wide passage while she was being attacked, I didn't get "You are interfering with a battle" message. Is it supposed to work this way?
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Craban
Product Manager

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Originally posted by Liyn on 11.09.2010 13:03:30:
> While I like the idea, there is something wrong with
> it.. I have a nice amount of assisted kills just for
> walking by the person who was running away from the
> killers. Yet I'm listed in his death list just the
> same as the attackers. It might get people in
> trouble. It would be better if the death list showed:
> Killed at level XX by Player A, Player B, Player C
> with assistance of Player D and Player E.

I like that proposal. I'll see if this can be added next week.
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Clubster

Inhabitant of Antica
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 211

Circle of Light of the Nightmare Knights (Beast)

Posts: 268

well i dont mind my name on his death list but like lyin sayed maybe it should show up on his death list as assisited kill or maybe change the color of the name from dark back to a different color on his death list showing it was a assisted kill.

plus i was in a party with him at the time maybe there a way to fix it so when the people are in a party there is no assisted just some thoughts.
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Aissy

Inhabitant of Elysia
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 239

Salvation of the Cruoris

Posts: 561

First off i have to say i strongly agrees that there has to be a way to differ between the killers and the assisted killers in the character deaths list.



Secondly, before i can tell my opinion about many different scenarios i have some questions on how you become an assisted killer. Since some of them are very hard to test out myself i would be happy if anyone that knows could answer.


Assuming like it has been stated, an assisted killer which also is a killer will only be counted/listed as a killer.

-If you have been dealing damage to a victim the last 60 seconds before he dies, but you happens to not be included in the 20 players that get a frag on him because there is more than 20 players killing him, will you then be counted as one of the assisted killers?

-Is there a limit on the amount of players that will be counted as assisted killers?


I am assuming that you are counted as an assisted killer if you are standing next to a completely surrounded victim when he dies.
-Is there any other cases of blocking where you also are counted as an assisted killer?
(different examples follows)

-Are you counted as an assisted killer if you are beside a victim that dies but isnt completely surrounded?

-If you are helping in making a victim completely surrounded before he dies (within 60 seconds before), but at the time of his death you are not surrounding him, will you still be counted as an assisted killer?

-If you have been beside a victim at any time shortly (within 60 seconds) before he dies, will you be counted as assisted killer?

-If you shoot a magic wall which helps to completely surrounds a victim who dies, will you be counted as assisted killer?

Alecto Misc

Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17

Posts: 2198

Originally posted by Aissy on 11.09.2010 18:27:39:
> First off i have to say i strongly agrees that there
> has to be a way to differ between the killers and the
> assisted killers in the character deaths list.

AGREED!

After looking at a few death lists, by it not being separated you don't know who you would have the orange skull against.
And the way it is now, it makes peaceful people that get caught in the "wrong place" appear to be aggressive and part of the actual killers.

IMHO, it would be best to say "killed by: x, y, & z. Assistants: a, b & c"

Morindal

Inhabitant of Nebula
Profession: Royal Paladin
Level: 179

Vice Leader of the Victum Omnis

Posts: 323

I have been standing next to my friend, Nathelix, when he was getting attacked, healing him for over 5 minutes with all the spirit potions I had.
When he finally died (black skull helps the things pretty good) I noticed I'm on his death page and my "kill" page shows I assisted in the death.
Imo there should be some way of distinguishing whether the person near victim is helping in the killing process or helping the player. The way we've got it now will lead to, for example, team of players standing in a pack getting assisted kills on their friends for just standing by them when they die. And I'm sure that's not how the thing was supposed to work...
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Magus Firefly

Inhabitant of Refugia
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Level: 225

Smilodon of the Sixth Extinction

Posts: 5151

Hi

Originally posted by Morindal on 11.09.2010 20:37:00:
> I have been standing next to my friend, Nathelix,
> when he was getting attacked, healing him for over 5
> minutes with all the spirit potions I had.
> When he finally died (black skull helps the things
> pretty good) I noticed I'm on his death page and my
> "kill" page shows I assisted in the death.
> Imo there should be some way of distinguishing
> whether the person near victim is helping in the
> killing process or helping the player. The way we've
> got it now will lead to, for example, team of players
> standing in a pack getting assisted kills on their
> friends for just standing by them when they die. And
> I'm sure that's not how the thing was supposed to
> work...

True, it was first tried to add all people who healed the vicim to his level when it comes to calculate his death losses.

But this would be abused very easily with several players healing the victim to give him as much death losses as possible!

So what we have not is as least losses as possible, even knowing that its not really "fair", but the alternative is by far worse.
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Craban
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We'll work on a seperated display in the death list between killers and assisters.
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Craban
Product Manager

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Level: 4

Posts: 4103

Fixes online.
________________

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Alecto Misc

Inhabitant of Danubia
Profession: Knight
Level: 17

Posts: 2198

Originally posted by Craban on 14.09.2010 13:42:59:
> Fixes online.

Thanks Craban, that looks real good, and I saw it applied to the kills over the past few days.

Killed by: x, y, z
Assisted by: a, b

Now to just make sure people understand the "assisted by" could be people that used mw's, paralize, intentional blocker, AND people that were caught in a jam and were standing by the person in that last minute!

Clubster

Inhabitant of Antica
Profession: Elite Knight
Level: 211

Circle of Light of the Nightmare Knights (Beast)

Posts: 268

i like the new fix thanks for the new fix looks alot better now.
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Dreadone

Inhabitant of Valoria
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 103

Posts: 101

Aleppe:
We need more assisted skulls attributions!

I'll strongly disagree with you. You are responsible for the runes you use. If you put fire bomb, and I accidenly walk into it making you skulled, I don't really care if someone kill you afterwards or not. You don't need to complicate whole pvp system. Just play responsibly. The beauty of this game is it's simplicity. Let's keep it this way.
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Toxic-Moondancer

Inhabitant of Celesta
Profession: Knight
Level: 50

Posts: 24

is there a way to check who i killed on test?
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Liyn

Inhabitant of Amera
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 101

Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

Posts: 874

Originally posted by Toxic-Moondancer on 14.09.2010 23:40:26:
> is there a way to check who i killed on test?

Yep. In this thread: http://forum.tibia.com/forum/?action=announcement&announcementid=53 [Do not look at external websites. Your account could be hacked.]

there is a link to the test website. Just login there and enter your nick in the community> characters section.

Liyn
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Toxic-Moondancer

Inhabitant of Celesta
Profession: Knight
Level: 50

Posts: 24

Originally posted by Liyn on 14.09.2010 23:42:27:
> Originally posted by Toxic-Moondancer on
> 14.09.2010 23:40:26:
> > is there a way to check who i killed on test?
>
> Yep. In this thread:
> http://forum.tibia.com/forum/?action=announcemen
> t&announcementid=53 [Do not look at external websites. Your account could be hacked.]
>
> there is a link to the test website. Just login there
> and enter your nick in the community> characters
> section.
>
> Liyn

ty but cud u tell me how to get to that site from the tibia dite cos i dnt like copying sites someone puts on forums lol hope u understand
________________

PoIsOnEd GiRl! - when you get to chose between heaven and hell, id have to go for hell. because i am evil and waitin to kill! - im am not afraid of death.... so dont threaten me wiv it!

Liyn

Inhabitant of Amera
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 101

Royal family of the Academy of Might and Magic (Dreamwalker)

Posts: 874

Originally posted by Toxic-Moondancer on 14.09.2010 23:50:42:

> ty but cud u tell me how to get to that site from
> the tibia dite cos i dnt like copying sites someone
> puts on forums lol hope u understand

Smart choice! Enter support boards -> Private -Pvp Test board (just where we are;p) and then there is an announcement on the top of the board. Leads to the link I gave you. That thread is by Craban, Cipsoft member.
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Aleppe

Inhabitant of Nerana
Profession: Elder Druid
Level: 147

Posts: 5847

Originally posted by Dreadone on 14.09.2010 23:10:44:
> Aleppe:
> We need more assisted skulls attributions!
>
> I'll strongly disagree with you. You are responsible
> for the runes you use. If you put fire bomb, and I
> accidenly walk into it making you skulled, I don't
> really care if someone kill you afterwards or not.
> You don't need to complicate whole pvp system. Just
> play responsibly. The beauty of this game is it's
> simplicity. Let's keep it this way.


I don't want the 20 unjusts, and I've proposed a valid alternative limiting the unjusts x frag according to the assisted kills number: that's why I want more assisted kills attributions.
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